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Welcome to challenging paradigm X.

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What is futurology and is the study of futures at all?

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Scientific is being agile.

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The opposite of being resilient.

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What are the biggest challenges when it comes to
initiating the transformation and organizations?

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Can we just continue exploiting our planet as artificial
intelligence will eventually become our savior.

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And what opportunities does the
Corona pandemic create for us?

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My guest today is gondola.

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He is a mission-driven and future
enthusiastic futurologists.

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That means he is a futures scientist in
his case, with a background in sociology,

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political sciences, and futures research.

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He has experience as an entrepreneur consults organizations
and still does academic work in the field of the futures.

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Apart from that, he works as a professional keynote
speaker, including a TEDx talk and has his own podcast.

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So if you’re interested in future topics
with a positive outlook, Stay tuned.

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Today, I’m here with Kai.

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Good to have you here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Please send, produce yourself.

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Where are you and what do you do?

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Who are you?

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Who am I?

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One of the biggest questions I think in the universe.

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Right?

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Why am I here?

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I have been born and raised in the very north of
Germany, but actually my parents didn’t come from there.

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But I think what describes me the best is I’m a very
enthusiastic person when it comes to future questions.

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And that’s part of my job description as well.

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So I’m a, futurologist a futures scientist, if you will.

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And I like both the technological stuff, as
well as the societal stuff, the political stuff.

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And that’s why I’m quite constantly engaged in researching.

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Topics or reading studies, writing studies,
reading, blog posts, doing my own podcast.

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Essentially.

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I think I like to think about futures and visions
and I’d like to anticipate basically all of that.

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And why are there political parties, for example, that
try to get back to like pre-modern times basically, but

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why is there also so many constraints in the society
that try to undermine basically the visionary parts?

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What futurists or futurologists
like us basically do and talk about.

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So it’s interesting to study humankind basically,
and with a certain perspective on non futurists.

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That’s what I do.

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Okay.

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And so why do you do what you do?

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I think because it’s fun, to be honest.

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I think when I started working or being an employee some 10
years ago, I was thrown and basically after my bachelor’s

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thesis, Labor market with employers and the job market.

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And you have to apply for many, many jobs to get
one feedback or so, and then you get into the

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machinery and then use some somehow realize that
building your own career or whatsoever always

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involves outsmarting or out competing other people.

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And of course, I mean growing or you’re on your own, but
then I, I had some, one or two years in a very big company.

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That’s 30 a corporation.

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And I got to know all the ups and downs
of the people who were working there.

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Some only been there for a couple of years and some of them
live for 30 years and already expecting their pension plans.

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And what’s drove me with the most, I
think was that many of them didn’t really.

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A lot of what they were doing, they were good at their job.

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No question at all.

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And some of them had a small path
of corporate career behind them.

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Some of them were like looking into the
future, like to get the next level and so on.

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But I rarely encountered someone who was really like
purposefully doing and loving what they’re doing.

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Yeah.

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Then I found out that you could study
a future science or a futures research.

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And I thought that sounds so cool because me being
someone who studied social sciences and political

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sciences before I knew that there’s more to be
done, know more, to be like researched or focused

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on, then just like to look back in history.

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And I love history and Emma’s totally history, dude.

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But on the other hand, most of the studies
I encountered back then were always like

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describing what already had happened.

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Long ago, and then not even like deriving
from that, what was really needed to be done.

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So getting tips for politicians or for
the decision makers in the economy.

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And then I, yeah.

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Then I found out that you could study that if
you just research program in Berlin, what I

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did and I loved it because it was like, so.

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Interdisciplinary.

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So we learned so many things about so many industries
or studies, like for instance, economical studies

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or social studies, then pedagogic studies, or
I don’t know, everything studies a lot of which

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involved sustainability studies or gender studies.

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So it was like such a pack plan in two years only.

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And after that we got like the certificate, which said
you are now the master of the future basically, but okay.

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Not really, but a master of.

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Uh, future science.

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And I loved that because there were so many new like
possibilities or opportunities for me to realize what

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I lost, which was, or still is not just researching
on past events, but also think what could happen

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next and what could the development be like in
10 or 50 or a hundred years, and then back cast,

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what needs to be done to achieve one desirable?

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Because I think that’s one, one very important
aspect of futures studies that you have very

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few people, I think know it’s not just about
researching very objectively what could happen.

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Yeah.

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That’s one very important part, but necessarily
it’s so important to anticipate what you.

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Would like to happen next.

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And we as a society, every group, every system, every
societal system, and it starts with my own mind,

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everything like it’s a part or a subject of ambiguity and
complexity and so much change and volatility and all that.

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Of course.

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The fact that the fun fact, and also the challenging
fact is that barely you ever meet someone, even an

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organization or a small group of people, let it be a family
or so who really has thought about their own futures.

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And I deliberately say futures, not just futures.

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Every one of us thinks about future all the time.

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As soon as we stand up from bed in the morning, or we
leave the house to go to the groceries, grocery stores

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to the market, or we meet up with friends in the evening,
which is possible that we’re finally, again, we always

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anticipated what could happen in the first place.

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We, we dress ourselves up, we need to wear clothes.

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Sometimes we take an umbrella because we looked
up at the weather forecast and it said it there’s

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a likelihood that it’s going to rain tonight.

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And so we are prepared.

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But the more time you go into the future and the bigger
the systems are, obviously, but not really, obviously

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because we too less, we anticipate that really as a
society, um, then it gets complex and complicated.

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And of course it’s not, there’s not like the equivalent.

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To the umbrella in the evening for a society in 10 years.

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So let it be, or for example, the Luxilight climate crisis,
I think 99, 9% of scientists agree that we have a climate

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crisis, which has been like strongly made by humankind.

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Of course, let’s look the Anthropocene.

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So we agree on that fact, but it’s so difficult to
agree on which measures to be taken, to like really

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find out what is happening right now in the Arctic for
the glaciers, for example, or for the rising sea levels

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or for environmental refugees and so on and so forth.

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It’s really difficult to agree on an agenda
to avoid certain scenarios to take place.

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And that’s basically one of one, one of
the most political aspects of my job.

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Support those organizations, that institutions
that are there to formulate to, to create, or

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to decide on what actually needs to happen.

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And that’s a very interesting job because I have to,
or I get to meet interesting people in institutions.

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I think we’re in the same boat here, but on the other
hand, it’s sometimes I would call it like very high.

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Or a strong responsibility because on the, like on
the screen, people were listening to us right now.

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Also see us in the entertaining mode.

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And of course this part of the job to deliver
the scientific facts and visions of the futures.

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Of course.

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But on the other hand, it’s so important that those are the
people who listen to us and take action after that, that the

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right ethically right or correct stuff is being delivered.

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Please tell me, did you, along your studies or beforehand
or afterwards, have any epiphanies or turning points

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that would lead you to do what you do now that would
change your perspective drastically or your perception?

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Yes, numerous.

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I think so the first thing I think is that the
constellation of my family members probably it

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happens to be that my father is pretty old for
my age, or I am pretty young for being his son.

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I will, he was 53 years old when I was
born, which leads to the situation that.

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Basically have a father who’s the same
age as the grandfather of my friends.

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So we have an intergenerational education
basically in the family, which is great.

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So he was, was experiencing the second world war.

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Imagine that.

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So he was born in 1934.

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So he was already like conscious when all
that shit happened, being born in the west of

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Germany and then grown up in what is today?

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The.

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At least for a few years.

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I think that that’s the first thing, which
strongly influenced how I look into like

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reality or futures or history as well.

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And I’m really grateful for that experience
and for, from up until today, long, very

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deep talks with my dad, which is really cool.

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On the other hand, I had a teacher
in high school from the fifth until.

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Great.

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I think it was Mr.

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Dharma rest in peace, Mr.

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Dharma, because he is suddenly and unexpectedly passed away.

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When I think I wasn’t in the ed cloud class, but he
wasn’t really a nice mentor for many of us in my class.

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And he used to teach us this saying this motto
from, for the Scouts, which is be prepared.

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I never encountered scholars actually, unfortunately, but.

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I think this be prepared thing it
started off with do your homework.

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Of course, this was the first thing.

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So when you come back from weekend and there’s Monday,
yes, there will be school and you will have had homework.

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And if you won’t have done them, there’s going to
be like, he’s going to be angry or stuff like that.

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Uh, but on the other hand, he like, he was able to teach us.

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Like the implicit effectors, what I only know today
and I’m able to be happy about or thankful about is

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that the aspects of futures generally off-course imply
that you need to be prepared for certain scenarios.

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And even if you, and going back to the examples
from earlier, if you take your umbrella to the

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evening ended, and it’s not going to rain, but
you’re happy about that fact that you carried it.

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And even if you didn’t use it, it’s cool because
you were prepared for another scenario and

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the same goes for, I don’t know, insurances.

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Sometimes there’s even this scenario of the
self-fulfilling prophecies or the self-defining prophecies.

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Another example is if you prepare for a fight with a
family member, because you think that there’s something

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that needs to be like spelled out and you expect the
other person to be like angry at you and yell at you.

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And so on, as you like anticipate the situation beforehand,
and then you go into the situation and you find it.

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He, or she is very grateful that you bring that up.

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Finally, that one topic that has been like between
you, like for years, and then you, you would have

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been prepared for, um, the fight or the argument.

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And on the other hand, maybe your way
of phrasing things already has changed

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before you even started that conversation.

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And so you learn.

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Through your own anticipation of the future, which
is great because I think in some, so many situations,

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we, as a society as well, can learn so much things
on, I think, low level in general of those situations.

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Like my, my teacher in the sixth grade told
us like to be prepared and just go through

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your mind and play through some scenarios.

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It really helped me a lot.

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And I think there were some people that
really were influential in the past six years.

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And the first thing was when I started my job
here in life, I moved to live to six years ago.

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Yeah.

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In 2000.

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Great city, by the way, because my, my today good
friend young, he was back then the chairman of a

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think tank, like a trench research think tank, and
they just started off building up a new research or

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foresight branch back then we were like 11 people or 12.

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I don’t know exactly.

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And young called me.

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I saw your profile on, I think LinkedIn or a zing or a no.

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And it says that you studied future sciences.

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This is so cool.

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Let’s talk.

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And it was like, okay, well let’s talk.

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And so we did, and it was 2014, I think when he
called me and then we met up in Berlin because of

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the fact that I was living in Potsdam and Berlin.

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Um, and we had a really nice talk and, and
had coffee afterwards, the bureau, I think,

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and it was like magic chemical chemistry.

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That’s really cool.

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Then one of my main tasks for four years was like
to build up in that think tank, the scientific

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method of the foresight team, which I did.

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And in during that time, the company grew from
those 12 peeps to over 16 quadrupled basically,

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which was not that healthy for the organization.

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And also that the friendship between.

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Some of the people they’re not involving me, of course.

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But then in 2019 I left the company and it wasn’t all
that easy to leave something brilliant like that behind.

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But on the other hand, I was looking ahead into a great
future of being self-employed and freelancing and doing

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the stuff I love and leaving out some of the organizational
stress, which always comes with being inside a corporate.

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Yeah, but still, uh, I recently met him again and we, we
had a mixture of vacation and work together in Bulgaria,

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which we did for a couple of years, at least once a year.

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And it’s like one of the, how to say that biggest
mind changing experiences I ever had in my life.

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I think until now I am I’m around 33, 34 years old.

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00:15:30,685 –> 00:15:34,135
And I think that one human being has changed so much.

209
00:15:34,960 –> 00:15:40,270
On the one hand, like helping me to
professionalize my futuristic for future

210
00:15:40,270 –> 00:15:43,690
logistic path to something like a career.

211
00:15:43,690 –> 00:15:44,140
I don’t know.

212
00:15:44,440 –> 00:15:50,500
And as well on the other hand to find out more about myself
and to be more confident in public speaking, for example,

213
00:15:50,500 –> 00:15:53,830
or in public guitar playing because that’s our share it.

214
00:15:53,830 –> 00:15:57,310
Hobby is playing the guitar and sing along at the campfire.

215
00:15:57,765 –> 00:16:01,875
Not more, I’ve done small stages, but
that’s definitely enough, but that’s yeah.

216
00:16:01,875 –> 00:16:07,395
This interaction with this one person has changed
so much and I’m so grateful for this human being.

217
00:16:07,455 –> 00:16:07,695
Yeah.

218
00:16:07,725 –> 00:16:12,945
I think that’s, that are like the main
pillars in establishing the root to what

219
00:16:12,945 –> 00:16:14,925
I’ve what I’m now professionally speaking.

220
00:16:17,855 –> 00:16:24,395
So you talked about building up the future
parts in the scientific way in the car.

221
00:16:25,240 –> 00:16:29,980
And for most people, future and
science doesn’t seem to go along.

222
00:16:30,610 –> 00:16:35,560
Can you give us an idea of what it means
to be scientific when it comes to future?

223
00:16:36,600 –> 00:16:37,020
Sure.

224
00:16:37,290 –> 00:16:42,840
That’s actually still subject of a discussion
inside the scientific community because a

225
00:16:42,840 –> 00:16:45,030
future implies that it’s not there actually.

226
00:16:45,030 –> 00:16:50,100
And so it’s really tough to study something
which actually doesn’t exist, but that’s also

227
00:16:50,100 –> 00:16:53,490
like the one crucial thing that future science.

228
00:16:54,140 –> 00:16:55,220
Always imply.

229
00:16:55,850 –> 00:17:00,800
So we don’t really study the future and we
don’t really predict or forecast the future.

230
00:17:01,050 –> 00:17:02,180
The main title.

231
00:17:03,470 –> 00:17:11,440
In my opinion is to anticipate the future or the
images of the futures, which already exist in the

232
00:17:11,440 –> 00:17:14,860
minds of people or of cultures or of organizations.

233
00:17:15,160 –> 00:17:17,950
Let me give you like an example or our listeners.

234
00:17:18,160 –> 00:17:20,200
One example how that can look like.

235
00:17:20,440 –> 00:17:26,980
So one classic business case is to have a customer,
a client, a one company saved from the insurance

236
00:17:26,980 –> 00:17:29,530
company needs like an outlook into the future.

237
00:17:29,530 –> 00:17:29,740
And.

238
00:17:31,495 –> 00:17:34,525
And they say, dear Chi, we need this report.

239
00:17:34,555 –> 00:17:35,695
Let’s call it a trend study.

240
00:17:36,205 –> 00:17:38,785
What’s going to happen in our environment.

241
00:17:38,785 –> 00:17:42,715
So in the economic and the ecologic
and the political regulatory.

242
00:17:43,405 –> 00:17:45,445
Societal and so forth environment.

243
00:17:45,865 –> 00:17:50,335
What about those things we don’t
really have on our radar already?

244
00:17:50,605 –> 00:17:54,535
How could they change and give us like a
glimpse into the future and look in your

245
00:17:54,535 –> 00:17:57,055
glass ball, what is likely to happen?

246
00:17:57,565 –> 00:18:02,755
And then let’s talk about the things we could
already prepare in terms of like strategic

247
00:18:02,785 –> 00:18:06,445
recommendations or business model ideation sessions.

248
00:18:07,525 –> 00:18:12,805
And so I, or we, as a think tank back then we
started investigating and like for a couple

249
00:18:12,805 –> 00:18:17,065
of months, what the, actually the first step
is like to understand the business model.

250
00:18:17,215 –> 00:18:23,890
Because even like in something like the
insurance industry, Company has its own business

251
00:18:23,890 –> 00:18:30,100
model, how the revenue being generated, or how
do we talk to our clients or our customers?

252
00:18:30,130 –> 00:18:30,790
This is B2B.

253
00:18:30,790 –> 00:18:31,810
It is a B2C and so on.

254
00:18:32,210 –> 00:18:36,790
So at worst, we, we need to understand what really
is the environment of this particular client.

255
00:18:37,210 –> 00:18:38,590
And then we start investigating.

256
00:18:39,195 –> 00:18:40,005
With online research.

257
00:18:40,005 –> 00:18:41,715
Of course, we read lots of papers.

258
00:18:41,715 –> 00:18:45,945
We read lots of studies published
in magazines or scientific journals.

259
00:18:46,275 –> 00:18:51,885
And of course we have our tools like trend
radars, which tell us like a trend Google, if

260
00:18:51,885 –> 00:18:55,035
you will, what are the most important trends?

261
00:18:56,140 –> 00:19:01,870
Agglomerations basically, is that important for the
insurance industry to deal with quantum security?

262
00:19:01,870 –> 00:19:07,240
I don’t know, or with distributed ledger technology,
or is it more important to look at the European

263
00:19:07,240 –> 00:19:12,790
union regulatory level and to talk to some experts
from the polyamide or from the EU commission?

264
00:19:12,790 –> 00:19:13,120
I don’t know.

265
00:19:13,540 –> 00:19:16,600
And then the next step obviously is to talk to those people.

266
00:19:16,990 –> 00:19:20,080
So we do lots of what we call expert interviews.

267
00:19:21,340 –> 00:19:22,900
And what we ask them.

268
00:19:22,900 –> 00:19:28,540
It’s not like to read out their press papers or
things that they would publish two months later.

269
00:19:28,570 –> 00:19:36,010
Anyway, the core idea is to identify those people
who have strong influence inside a political system

270
00:19:36,010 –> 00:19:37,840
or inside the economical system, I don’t know.

271
00:19:38,020 –> 00:19:38,080
Yeah.

272
00:19:38,160 –> 00:19:48,840
Uh, or in the tech area and ask them what they would
think is doable in some years of time or what is likely.

273
00:19:50,425 –> 00:19:56,155
So there’s a very specific interrogation system
actually, because it’s not that easy to really get

274
00:19:56,155 –> 00:20:03,655
those people to talk in futures because always like
it’s natural to stick to your role inside the society.

275
00:20:03,655 –> 00:20:09,505
But if you ask like the CEO of a, of an insurance
company, how he or she, um, anticipates like the year

276
00:20:09,505 –> 00:20:15,955
2040, they will basically replicate the strategy papers
they have worked on like for the past five years.

277
00:20:16,255 –> 00:20:19,375
And you need to like instantly, okay.

278
00:20:20,305 –> 00:20:21,115
This moment.

279
00:20:22,120 –> 00:20:29,320
When they’re actually stuck in the history or in the, in
the present, because he want like something more of them.

280
00:20:29,320 –> 00:20:35,290
And nobody wants to read a study, which basically like
only summarizes all those present strategic and PR

281
00:20:35,320 –> 00:20:38,110
papers from companies that could be done by anyone.

282
00:20:38,560 –> 00:20:38,830
Yeah.

283
00:20:38,830 –> 00:20:38,990
Yeah.

284
00:20:39,040 –> 00:20:39,790
That’s the first thing.

285
00:20:39,790 –> 00:20:44,090
So we talked to experts and an expert
can also be like someone who has not.

286
00:20:44,750 –> 00:20:48,170
But the big title of CEO or lead researcher.

287
00:20:48,440 –> 00:20:53,830
But after we did this first round of questions
and interviews, we summarized internally

288
00:20:54,040 –> 00:20:56,350
for interim purposes, those findings.

289
00:20:56,830 –> 00:21:02,830
And then we pick out those things, those aspects
we had as a result, basically from the first wave.

290
00:21:03,010 –> 00:21:06,520
And then we, that we pick those
aspects that are very uncertain.

291
00:21:07,110 –> 00:21:08,910
But potentially very influential.

292
00:21:09,510 –> 00:21:15,870
So one could say like, things like wildcards inside
a branch or an industry or so things like, is it

293
00:21:15,870 –> 00:21:21,960
possible that there’s going to be an insurance
company, which basically only relies on code?

294
00:21:22,710 –> 00:21:26,160
And there is none, no employees, no employer, no CEO.

295
00:21:26,160 –> 00:21:29,190
It’s only, but nothing but code is that doable.

296
00:21:29,910 –> 00:21:35,880
And so we have this thesis and we asked the same
experts, plus an extended panel of more experts.

297
00:21:37,015 –> 00:21:37,585
What do you think?

298
00:21:38,155 –> 00:21:40,105
Is it likely, is it doable?

299
00:21:40,165 –> 00:21:45,985
And the moment we have phrased this thesis,
one of those people anyway, we’ll do it.

300
00:21:46,255 –> 00:21:50,275
So we have like a very, very high
likelihood that things are going to change.

301
00:21:51,165 –> 00:21:54,085
And at the end, I mean, it differs from project to project.

302
00:21:54,085 –> 00:21:56,745
Some clients prefer like the.

303
00:21:57,640 –> 00:22:06,040
Study like select five 50 to 80 pages of text summary, where
you basically summarize the findings of this study progress.

304
00:22:06,190 –> 00:22:13,980
Some of the clients like to publish those findings as
like a PR marketing thing in the way of like, look we are

305
00:22:13,990 –> 00:22:19,480
insurance company is very far ahead and we know the future
know they won’t tell the press that this study actually

306
00:22:19,480 –> 00:22:22,150
is from two years ago, but it’s still 10 years ahead.

307
00:22:23,230 –> 00:22:25,600
Um, the other thing can be of course, those findings.

308
00:22:26,605 –> 00:22:33,625
Summarize in an executive summary and someone makes a film
for internal purposes for the employers or the employees.

309
00:22:33,985 –> 00:22:40,855
Um, So it’s also like a little bit familiar
or a little bit next to the science fiction

310
00:22:40,855 –> 00:22:43,855
community has the same tools from time to time.

311
00:22:44,275 –> 00:22:44,455
Yeah.

312
00:22:44,485 –> 00:22:46,195
But that’s basically like the scientific approach.

313
00:22:46,195 –> 00:22:50,845
So, uh, the scientific method basically relies on that.

314
00:22:50,845 –> 00:22:55,525
You are able to like document the progress
of a study that you are able to replicate

315
00:22:55,525 –> 00:22:57,705
those stuff where it gets a little bit nifty.

316
00:22:57,715 –> 00:22:57,775
Yeah.

317
00:22:58,290 –> 00:23:05,340
Because in any social sciences is very hard to
replicate the mathematicians or biologic researchers.

318
00:23:05,370 –> 00:23:12,720
They already are like fighting the fight against the
social sciences because you can’t measure social things.

319
00:23:12,780 –> 00:23:18,780
And if I ask you the same questions today and in a
year, you will definitely give different answers.

320
00:23:19,020 –> 00:23:21,150
So it’s all about being quick.

321
00:23:22,645 –> 00:23:29,685
Taking a snapshot basically of the futures images inside
the hats of decision makers and then make up your own

322
00:23:29,695 –> 00:23:33,025
mind and, um, put that stuff into the next decade.

323
00:23:34,275 –> 00:23:35,705
And I’m real interested.

324
00:23:35,715 –> 00:23:45,045
What do you personally see as the biggest challenge in the
process applying future science in companies, organizations?

325
00:23:46,035 –> 00:23:49,305
I guess one of the biggest challenges is, or might be.

326
00:23:50,620 –> 00:23:58,540
Still today in the year 2021, living inside one
of the biggest and most complex transitions or

327
00:23:58,540 –> 00:24:01,150
transformations that humankind has ever experienced.

328
00:24:01,450 –> 00:24:05,200
Most of the companies don’t really account for change.

329
00:24:05,770 –> 00:24:08,380
They still are made or being structured.

330
00:24:09,745 –> 00:24:11,305
In terms of stability.

331
00:24:12,205 –> 00:24:18,745
I don’t know how you felt that, but in the past months,
many articles or also like events had the headline

332
00:24:18,745 –> 00:24:24,745
of resilience, we need to become more resilient,
which by the meaning of the word actually means

333
00:24:24,865 –> 00:24:28,525
being more, more stable against, outside changes.

334
00:24:28,915 –> 00:24:34,795
And it’s being used at the moment for
some kind of PR phrase to actually employ.

335
00:24:35,785 –> 00:24:43,225
That you are more agile and be more flexible to, to align
to change, but that’s actually not the meaning of the word,

336
00:24:43,375 –> 00:24:51,985
but I think the companies are most of the organizations,
including like public sector institutions have like the.

337
00:24:53,275 –> 00:25:00,565
Or part of their coat is being stable or being very
restrict against outside changes, which has one, one

338
00:25:00,595 –> 00:25:02,815
very good reason and that which is like survival.

339
00:25:03,055 –> 00:25:08,605
But on the other hand, we’ve learned over the past,
I think 20 to 30 years from very good thinkers.

340
00:25:09,415 –> 00:25:17,275
That being agile in an organizational sense is actually
the number one survival factor in the 21st century.

341
00:25:18,955 –> 00:25:27,715
Also, and it’s this, it leads into an organizational’s
schizophrenia that also like this, like aligning to

342
00:25:27,715 –> 00:25:33,145
an agile workforce or a labor market also like it’s
one of those changes from the outside, which has to

343
00:25:33,145 –> 00:25:40,675
be like fought against and that’s wherever I, where I
came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that these

344
00:25:40,675 –> 00:25:44,455
2020s, this current decade is going to be the next.

345
00:25:45,475 –> 00:25:50,935
Which most likely will be remembered as the decade
where most of the companies and organizations.

346
00:25:51,730 –> 00:25:55,360
And they died because they weren’t prepared for change.

347
00:25:55,690 –> 00:26:01,630
And that’s actually very tragic because there are so
many people involved in working for those companies.

348
00:26:01,630 –> 00:26:08,830
Especially in the central Europe, we have such a strong
middle class of companies and there are so many like jobs.

349
00:26:09,405 –> 00:26:13,875
Involved in those companies and they are
really doing a bad job in coping with change.

350
00:26:14,235 –> 00:26:20,115
And we’ve known that for a couple of years and
this pandemic as like a multi crisis, basically.

351
00:26:20,685 –> 00:26:20,895
Yeah.

352
00:26:20,925 –> 00:26:23,595
Show that nothing was prepared.

353
00:26:23,715 –> 00:26:29,685
Although so many people from the scientific community
to NGOs, I don’t know, to the society warrants.

354
00:26:30,550 –> 00:26:34,270
That somethings are coming like a pandemic.

355
00:26:34,390 –> 00:26:35,800
And I wasn’t really surprised.

356
00:26:35,800 –> 00:26:36,130
I don’t know.

357
00:26:36,460 –> 00:26:41,500
I think from the futures community, no one really
was surprised that there is no this pandemic.

358
00:26:41,710 –> 00:26:43,150
And we were like, okay, let’s keep going.

359
00:26:43,150 –> 00:26:46,300
And then a month later we were
like, okay, where are the plants?

360
00:26:46,980 –> 00:26:48,660
Oh yeah, you have some plans, right?

361
00:26:48,900 –> 00:26:50,130
Oh, you don’t fuck.

362
00:26:50,550 –> 00:26:51,840
So I was like, damn it.

363
00:26:52,350 –> 00:26:52,620
Yeah.

364
00:26:52,680 –> 00:26:53,970
So I think that’s my point.

365
00:26:54,880 –> 00:26:59,260
Or my 2 cents to that discussion,
the companies are lost basically.

366
00:26:59,560 –> 00:27:07,510
And I talked to so many big corporations and even,
uh, the C level managers, they know that they know

367
00:27:07,510 –> 00:27:11,110
that they are unable to change, to transform from.

368
00:27:11,935 –> 00:27:20,035
From a partially century li as a century
long company to an agile network of, I don’t

369
00:27:20,035 –> 00:27:23,395
know, teams and bubbles and Holacracy stuff.

370
00:27:23,425 –> 00:27:29,935
That’s just not doable, especially for highly
regulated things like insurance, like financial

371
00:27:29,935 –> 00:27:32,605
industry, like mobility have automotive and stuff.

372
00:27:32,635 –> 00:27:34,315
It’s just too much.

373
00:27:34,345 –> 00:27:35,575
And you’re the new players.

374
00:27:36,455 –> 00:27:39,575
In the field, let’s say Tesla,
or I don’t know, trade Republic.

375
00:27:39,965 –> 00:27:44,945
They are agile because they started off from
a playing field and that’s totally different.

376
00:27:46,165 –> 00:27:47,155
I fully agree with you.

377
00:27:47,185 –> 00:27:53,515
So what came up just now is that one of my friends who
was used to be a, until recently in a C-suite position,

378
00:27:54,235 –> 00:28:01,855
in a big Austrian company and very successful, got
multiple awards for his position in, in his industry.

379
00:28:01,855 –> 00:28:03,835
I don’t want to say more because I don’t want to uncouple.

380
00:28:03,835 –> 00:28:08,505
It is of course, but he actually made
the company Agio and he was kicked out.

381
00:28:09,640 –> 00:28:16,930
So that’s, it’s very interesting because he was super
successful and it’s a very conservative company.

382
00:28:17,830 –> 00:28:22,900
And actually during the time where you would need
someone like this person to be come the second, most

383
00:28:22,900 –> 00:28:25,690
important person next to the CEO, the COO kick them out.

384
00:28:25,720 –> 00:28:30,100
And I see this a lot and I’m not exactly
like this, but I see a lot of what you see.

385
00:28:30,805 –> 00:28:33,805
That a lot of companies will not survive.

386
00:28:34,555 –> 00:28:39,145
And a lot of companies try to be stable
and resilient in the way that you say it.

387
00:28:39,565 –> 00:28:46,105
And what comes up for me when I think of that is
basically, I always like many people use the metaphor of

388
00:28:46,105 –> 00:28:49,465
the caterpillar becoming a butterfly, the metamorphic.

389
00:28:50,550 –> 00:28:56,940
And like this idea of being be being stable and
more resilient is when actually the metamorphoses

390
00:28:56,940 –> 00:29:05,040
is already going on and the cells on the cocoon and
they decide they want to be stable and they want to,

391
00:29:05,460 –> 00:29:09,660
they want to hold on and go back to the old normal.

392
00:29:10,110 –> 00:29:15,720
What happens is exactly that the die, because you
need to be at agile, let’s use this work now, also

393
00:29:15,720 –> 00:29:18,930
in this metaphor and actually become the new thing.

394
00:29:20,435 –> 00:29:23,585
With the essence of the past, but become the new thing.

395
00:29:24,155 –> 00:29:29,765
So first of all, they become the unfold,
their potential, and also to survive.

396
00:29:30,185 –> 00:29:36,725
And the reality is that out of 400
eggs of butterflies, only about eight.

397
00:29:37,250 –> 00:29:40,250
Survive and become butterflies again.

398
00:29:40,310 –> 00:29:45,440
So it’s a 2%, and I wouldn’t say that
only 2% of the companies will survive now.

399
00:29:45,470 –> 00:29:46,280
Definitely not.

400
00:29:46,310 –> 00:29:50,510
Because when we talk about X, not all of these
X become actually caterpillars of course.

401
00:29:51,260 –> 00:29:57,140
But yes, there will be a lot of companies who
really hold on and hold back because of fear

402
00:29:57,170 –> 00:30:05,150
because of the intention of security, the value
of security, and also because of being delivered.

403
00:30:06,610 –> 00:30:08,650
That they will a lot will not survive.

404
00:30:08,950 –> 00:30:11,680
So basically, yeah, that’s my 2 cents at the moment.

405
00:30:11,770 –> 00:30:14,200
And what I always say, and we also want to add that.

406
00:30:14,200 –> 00:30:20,620
I think that we globally on a kind of a state of
psychosis and, and the positive thing about so

407
00:30:20,620 –> 00:30:26,710
courses that most people don’t actually know is
that psychosis, if people go through, so courses

408
00:30:26,710 –> 00:30:30,250
in a healthy way, they’re actually exactly happens.

409
00:30:30,250 –> 00:30:33,760
The same thing that you have with
butterflies and caterpillars, they actually.

410
00:30:34,275 –> 00:30:40,305
Come out on the other end in a very different way and not
normal, again, sort of state, but on a different level.

411
00:30:40,365 –> 00:30:41,745
So most people don’t actually know that.

412
00:30:42,555 –> 00:30:44,685
And, uh, that’s why I like to compare it.

413
00:30:47,255 –> 00:30:54,705
I’m really interested what you see that the
pandemic means for us as societies, as a humanity.

414
00:30:55,255 –> 00:30:59,875
I hope I hope actually, that’s not
based on scientific research now.

415
00:31:00,175 –> 00:31:02,125
I hope that society’s able to.

416
00:31:02,965 –> 00:31:12,715
Really step back a little and analyze the situation because
as you just said, psychosis can lead to a better state as

417
00:31:12,715 –> 00:31:20,395
well as horrific car accidents or so can, but they can also
lead to a trauma if I don’t really deal with a situation

418
00:31:20,515 –> 00:31:26,755
and that’s the work to be done that I think that’s,
that’s not the most preferred way most people like to act.

419
00:31:27,025 –> 00:31:30,565
And now we have the same thing on
the table for us as a collective.

420
00:31:31,315 –> 00:31:34,915
Intelligence like the collective mind now needs to learn.

421
00:31:35,185 –> 00:31:42,865
And it also needs to, it needs to heal on the other
hand, because I think what the many micro accidents or

422
00:31:42,865 –> 00:31:50,125
the micro shocks and traumatized, which happened during
the pandemic that don’t get to be on the headlines

423
00:31:50,175 –> 00:31:52,705
of a big paper, newspaper, or so are the blocks.

424
00:31:53,455 –> 00:32:03,370
Those are the things that really nourish my sorrows in
terms of like, Post COVID scenarios for me often are

425
00:32:03,370 –> 00:32:08,650
based on an insecure, still very uncertain society.

426
00:32:09,040 –> 00:32:13,450
And at least back in history always have been,
societies were very insecure and very unstable.

427
00:32:13,690 –> 00:32:20,050
And even the elites, the, like the established
community of political leaders, so, uh, were insecure.

428
00:32:20,320 –> 00:32:20,770
What happened.

429
00:32:21,835 –> 00:32:27,175
We all know that a hundred years ago or so we
had the situation just after the first world war.

430
00:32:27,175 –> 00:32:30,955
Then we had the second world war
in highly insecure societies.

431
00:32:30,955 –> 00:32:36,715
And with verified, like under the bottom, like
under the surface between elites like conservative

432
00:32:36,715 –> 00:32:40,375
and liberal and progressive, I don’t know the
scientific community, the religious community yeah.

433
00:32:40,395 –> 00:32:40,875
And stuff.

434
00:32:41,685 –> 00:32:44,175
And that led to people being.

435
00:32:45,370 –> 00:32:46,270
Not really happy.

436
00:32:46,780 –> 00:32:51,640
And then they listened to those demagogues, like
Hitler was one, or I don’t know that they go to war.

437
00:32:51,670 –> 00:32:56,530
They sent their children literally to go to war
and they know that they’re not going to come back.

438
00:32:56,770 –> 00:33:02,650
And I think this is like the ultimate state of
psychosis, like a collective psychosis, maybe.

439
00:33:03,955 –> 00:33:08,125
So desperate and also like economic sectors
aside, but you are so desperate that

440
00:33:08,125 –> 00:33:11,365
you’re, you’re ready to like, um, yeah.

441
00:33:11,395 –> 00:33:17,895
Send your kids to war or participate in war against some
enemy like virtual and real enemy in most of the cases.

442
00:33:18,105 –> 00:33:22,785
And we’ve seen that in the past years, this year
as well, also in Israel, again, that we had.

443
00:33:23,720 –> 00:33:24,260
Conflict.

444
00:33:24,260 –> 00:33:31,160
We had so many satellite conflicts, which like for me,
show that even like the cold war never really ended.

445
00:33:31,250 –> 00:33:36,920
It’s just not up on the newspapers since
1989, because someone, some actually.

446
00:33:38,095 –> 00:33:41,935
Smart scientists said that this is
going to be like the end of history.

447
00:33:42,595 –> 00:33:45,835
I think the end of the clash of
two systems, that’s ridiculous.

448
00:33:45,835 –> 00:33:49,225
I mean, a scene from now just nothing changes.

449
00:33:49,225 –> 00:33:51,295
It was just the conflict lines changed.

450
00:33:51,565 –> 00:33:53,185
But getting back to the topic, I think.

451
00:33:54,625 –> 00:34:01,735
It’s a very dark scenario in the future, and that we won’t
be able to learn from this shock, this collective shock.

452
00:34:01,735 –> 00:34:06,865
And I think they’re the most, well, one of the most
important things, I mean, of course I’m a future scientist,

453
00:34:06,925 –> 00:34:16,255
but one of the most important things we need to anticipate
at least, or, uh, Out loud more often is the fact of

454
00:34:16,525 –> 00:34:26,245
times thinking, because I think still, we, at least in the
global north, we have made such huge progress in the past

455
00:34:26,245 –> 00:34:30,115
2200 or 2,250 years, but also like very many downsides.

456
00:34:30,115 –> 00:34:36,805
I know we all know that in terms of sustainability
and societal justice, but on the other hand,

457
00:34:36,835 –> 00:34:42,520
we’ve made such a huge progress in terms
of like, At least good functioning laws.

458
00:34:42,550 –> 00:34:47,200
We have the police, we have politicians, we have
corporations who are able to deliver so much

459
00:34:47,200 –> 00:34:51,730
stuff into our supermarkets that we can simply
everyday goal there between seven in the morning.

460
00:34:51,730 –> 00:34:57,640
And I don’t know, 10 in the evening and just buy stuff
from all over the world, which is actually great.

461
00:34:57,670 –> 00:35:03,370
But so many people, I don’t really realize
that this is something to be grateful for.

462
00:35:04,090 –> 00:35:10,840
And so if something changes in the daily
routines, they, they are unhappy and then

463
00:35:10,840 –> 00:35:12,820
they’re angry and that they yell at each other.

464
00:35:12,820 –> 00:35:18,490
And that they say that those migrants are, are subject
to our policy because it’s just nuts that they come to

465
00:35:18,490 –> 00:35:21,310
our country and want to steal our jobs and our wives.

466
00:35:21,310 –> 00:35:28,090
And I don’t know, like these never, never nourish on
the ground of unhappy people and ungrateful people.

467
00:35:28,090 –> 00:35:30,820
And I think this is really closely connect.

468
00:35:31,960 –> 00:35:40,540
To thinking times differently and thereby,
I mean, this whole thing we call history

469
00:35:40,870 –> 00:35:43,750
is not a linear story we can tell.

470
00:35:43,930 –> 00:35:46,750
And it’s also not an greetings
to my history teacher back then.

471
00:35:47,000 –> 00:35:49,750
It’s also not something that repeats all over again.

472
00:35:49,960 –> 00:35:52,030
Of course you can always compare things to each other.

473
00:35:52,030 –> 00:35:54,520
You can even compare bananas and
apples, and I think that’s cool.

474
00:35:55,525 –> 00:35:59,875
I think we all need to learn and we need to
understand better the spiral dynamics and the

475
00:36:00,595 –> 00:36:07,795
times like the levels we are leveraging in the
past decades, because what we are heading towards

476
00:36:08,095 –> 00:36:10,945
possibly can be something very cool for everyone.

477
00:36:11,335 –> 00:36:16,645
Even if we are going to be like around 10 billion
people in the world and if a few decades, and

478
00:36:16,705 –> 00:36:21,865
some people still believe that we are not able
to feed even the people we have right now.

479
00:36:22,225 –> 00:36:23,235
No, that is something.

480
00:36:23,875 –> 00:36:26,515
W we, we need to discuss definitely publicly.

481
00:36:27,700 –> 00:36:34,930
It’s all about justice and it’s all about what we
value as, as a being and not just human beings.

482
00:36:34,930 –> 00:36:41,200
It starts with human beings and we need to try to,
in my opinion, to make it affordable for every person

483
00:36:41,200 –> 00:36:48,400
in the world to have access to water, to food, to
schools, to clinics, health systems and stuff like that.

484
00:36:48,670 –> 00:36:50,080
But it’s not that easy, obviously.

485
00:36:50,350 –> 00:36:54,460
And on the other hand, we’ve done, we don’t
where we, when we must not forget to grab.

486
00:36:55,300 –> 00:37:02,140
Certain planetary beings like the planet itself, mother
earth, which nourishes us, which keeps us alive basically,

487
00:37:02,140 –> 00:37:08,170
which is part of the universe with all of the sudden we
would have, we would totally be banked with other moon.

488
00:37:08,200 –> 00:37:14,230
We would have some problems, uh,
without forests, clean air Burt’s bees.

489
00:37:14,320 –> 00:37:15,130
I don’t stuff like that.

490
00:37:15,310 –> 00:37:18,160
It’s so big and so complex, but we should grant those.

491
00:37:19,105 –> 00:37:26,755
Planetary beings rights, just like it happened a few months
ago in New Zealand when rivers became justice persons,

492
00:37:27,115 –> 00:37:30,745
which was just a very big effort in, for climate activists.

493
00:37:30,895 –> 00:37:33,685
But New Zealand is not really like
the biggest country in the world.

494
00:37:33,895 –> 00:37:40,695
It’s good that things are starting to change,
but as long as it’s not forbidden, To throw

495
00:37:40,695 –> 00:37:47,055
plastic into the rivers to put like chemistry
waste, like BAS F or a buyer or stuff like that.

496
00:37:47,265 –> 00:37:53,835
Companies like that they’re doing all the time on
a Nestle is still purchasing water sources in those

497
00:37:53,865 –> 00:38:00,495
regions where most of the people are basically dying
from, from to less water and operations like that.

498
00:38:00,555 –> 00:38:03,945
They just don’t get the idea of wholeness.

499
00:38:05,060 –> 00:38:06,070
Society humankind.

500
00:38:06,550 –> 00:38:12,160
And I think that’s one of the things we need to address
more often and not just in the activist way, because at

501
00:38:12,160 –> 00:38:15,430
least for me, that’s not, um, the right way of phrasing it.

502
00:38:15,670 –> 00:38:24,670
But like in a way that really can change things or address
like regulatory changes that need to be taken so that our

503
00:38:24,730 –> 00:38:28,660
children or grandchildren generation will have the plan.

504
00:38:29,485 –> 00:38:35,455
Whereas like nice to live on and not just where
everyone’s in this state of a refugee all the

505
00:38:35,455 –> 00:38:43,615
time and the climate catastrophe, basically
just choice or the ground for plans and things.

506
00:38:44,935 –> 00:38:50,745
Lift from that’s something I call the Levier seam.

507
00:38:51,285 –> 00:38:54,195
It’s like translate into English.

508
00:38:54,395 –> 00:39:01,005
So Olivia tan or Leviathan, I don’t know this
ancient creature, which was like, then in the 17th

509
00:39:01,005 –> 00:39:08,555
century used by Thomas hops to describe the, this
silver entity or the, uh, the dictator is that.

510
00:39:09,250 –> 00:39:10,210
Busy or the monarchy.

511
00:39:10,660 –> 00:39:16,570
And he wanted to like picture like this
destructive force with this ancient figure.

512
00:39:16,840 –> 00:39:23,920
And I think the other term, which is being used for the
scientific term for climate change or this age we are living

513
00:39:23,920 –> 00:39:31,090
in right now is the Anthropocene, which implies that humans
are responsible for climate change and like geological

514
00:39:31,360 –> 00:39:38,470
change, which is already undergo since some centuries, not
even starting with the industrialization, but some centers.

515
00:39:39,805 –> 00:39:45,985
But I don’t agree with that idea because it implies that
every human being that the human nature implies that we

516
00:39:45,985 –> 00:39:51,235
like to destroy nature and that we like to change the
planetary boundaries, which is, I think not the case.

517
00:39:51,525 –> 00:39:58,545
If you would do a poll like conduct random interviews
with people on the street, or just type in some

518
00:39:58,545 –> 00:40:02,775
numbers in your smart phone and call someone and
you ask all those people the same question, would

519
00:40:02,775 –> 00:40:04,695
you agree that destroying the planet is cool?

520
00:40:06,565 –> 00:40:08,905
Barely everyone would agree.

521
00:40:09,145 –> 00:40:14,515
That’s a very shitty idea, but still in organizations
and organizations have to like those boundaries

522
00:40:14,515 –> 00:40:17,725
and constraints set by regulatory rules.

523
00:40:17,785 –> 00:40:22,585
But the society, essentially those organizations
are responsible for those changes and they can’t

524
00:40:22,585 –> 00:40:25,075
just simply stop doing what they’re doing it.

525
00:40:25,105 –> 00:40:25,945
I understand that.

526
00:40:26,155 –> 00:40:28,225
So we need to anticipate that as well.

527
00:40:28,285 –> 00:40:29,875
If we build our future scenarios.

528
00:40:30,295 –> 00:40:30,475
Yeah.

529
00:40:30,505 –> 00:40:33,595
Long story short, I think rethinking times.

530
00:40:34,660 –> 00:40:41,380
Priorities in terms of like, what is really, really
essential to surviving and like living moral than

531
00:40:41,380 –> 00:40:44,680
to survive is very crucial for our generations.

532
00:40:47,785 –> 00:40:53,365
So we’re basically now at the core of what this
podcast is about, which paradigms do you think

533
00:40:53,395 –> 00:40:56,245
need to be challenged for a better future?

534
00:40:56,425 –> 00:41:03,315
First, I think that’s the first principle or
paradigm is that there is not going to be an

535
00:41:03,375 –> 00:41:09,705
artificial intelligence that is able to rescue us
in our situation or to do MOUs, at least not yet.

536
00:41:10,420 –> 00:41:15,610
Couple of centuries, because I have a strong
feeling that whenever I go to an event or a write

537
00:41:15,640 –> 00:41:20,440
an article or something about we’re involving
artificial intelligence systems, which is.

538
00:41:21,505 –> 00:41:28,525
Machine or deep learning systems people somehow
expect, especially from non it industry.

539
00:41:28,525 –> 00:41:34,975
Of course, they expect me to say, or to tell them that
someday there’s going to be president or a chancellor,

540
00:41:34,975 –> 00:41:41,665
or like everything’s going to be automated by an AI
because there’s the superhero intelligence approaching us.

541
00:41:41,875 –> 00:41:46,615
And after spending really many days or weeks
or months, I don’t know, studying this topic

542
00:41:46,795 –> 00:41:49,015
and talking to many experts in the field of AI.

543
00:41:49,015 –> 00:41:50,175
And it, I, I.

544
00:41:50,920 –> 00:42:01,380
Like confidence in those scenarios because, um,
even if we can somehow simulate human brains by

545
00:42:01,590 –> 00:42:06,270
the computers, by the speed of the transistors
and the CPU and stuff like that, even then.

546
00:42:06,270 –> 00:42:06,330
Yeah.

547
00:42:07,165 –> 00:42:12,835
It’s absolutely very unlikely that
those machines are able to be conscious.

548
00:42:13,765 –> 00:42:19,345
I think I won’t go more into detail, but having
said that this is one of the big paradigms where

549
00:42:19,405 –> 00:42:21,505
I think many industries or decision makers.

550
00:42:22,625 –> 00:42:31,505
And also normal private persons expect the progress of
technology to somehow land it’s like B it’s necessarily

551
00:42:31,505 –> 00:42:37,505
like a necessary output that we’re going to have a super
intelligent AI agent that rescues or even dooms something.

552
00:42:37,715 –> 00:42:45,065
And it either leads to a state of, I don’t
know, like waiting for what’s it called?

553
00:42:45,065 –> 00:42:46,475
Love Jesus, but like the big.

554
00:42:47,650 –> 00:42:48,970
They’re like the big Messiah, right?

555
00:42:49,290 –> 00:42:56,170
So just waiting and it’s going to be cool someday, so we can
still pollute the environment or we can still go to a nine

556
00:42:56,170 –> 00:43:01,720
to five jobs and do things just as we did before, as long
as I don’t need to change, everything’s going to be cool.

557
00:43:01,750 –> 00:43:04,300
So this is the one big fraction
and the other big fraction is.

558
00:43:06,135 –> 00:43:06,765
For one moment.

559
00:43:07,275 –> 00:43:07,425
Yes.

560
00:43:07,425 –> 00:43:09,105
Because it’s interesting what you’re saying.

561
00:43:09,105 –> 00:43:15,675
And I agree with the second part, definitely that,
I mean, we have responsibility and we cannot hope

562
00:43:15,675 –> 00:43:18,195
and wait for artificial intelligence or barriers.

563
00:43:18,195 –> 00:43:22,965
Artificial intelligence is so also, I mean,
there’s already multiple artificial intelligence.

564
00:43:23,800 –> 00:43:26,290
That we cannot wait and hope that they will make it better.

565
00:43:26,350 –> 00:43:29,560
So I think that’s completely the wrong approach.

566
00:43:29,560 –> 00:43:36,850
And also from my research, I, what I realized is
that, that, uh, they actually going to be like us.

567
00:43:36,850 –> 00:43:39,310
They’re not going to be better
than us because we teach them.

568
00:43:39,430 –> 00:43:44,260
So, I mean, that’s the second problem, but when it comes
to the first thing you said about artificial intelligence,

569
00:43:44,590 –> 00:43:47,950
I like the people I talk to also on this podcast.

570
00:43:48,500 –> 00:43:51,140
They actually do agree on that.

571
00:43:51,200 –> 00:43:53,150
It is around not central.

572
00:43:54,730 –> 00:44:00,880
And that also both of, I had two people on this
podcast, both professors in the U S and artificial

573
00:44:00,880 –> 00:44:06,520
intelligence, and both of them actually say artificial
intelligence does already have consciousness.

574
00:44:06,880 –> 00:44:07,060
Okay.

575
00:44:07,080 –> 00:44:14,680
And also, also one of them, the guy who is also a musician
and two is actually one of the people who was off.

576
00:44:15,300 –> 00:44:18,900
Like very crucial influential opine use of machine learning.

577
00:44:19,320 –> 00:44:26,790
He explains that the shift from old-school AI at its
core this way and, and what is now machine learning

578
00:44:26,790 –> 00:44:29,190
actually came through the paradigm of creativity.

579
00:44:29,490 –> 00:44:35,760
So there’s actually this idea that AI cannot
be creative, but it seems to be the fact, but

580
00:44:35,760 –> 00:44:40,080
there’s, as you say, you talk to experts, I talked
to experts and then there’s different opinions.

581
00:44:40,080 –> 00:44:43,020
Of course, I’m not an expert when
it comes to artificial intelligence.

582
00:44:43,615 –> 00:44:47,755
Make my research like you, and of
course people say very different things.

583
00:44:47,755 –> 00:44:55,105
So I think for me, I was very surprised when they actually,
I wasn’t so much surprised about the creativity part, but

584
00:44:55,105 –> 00:44:59,725
I was really surprised about the conscious part that they
say, yeah, artificial intelligence is already conscious,

585
00:44:59,965 –> 00:45:05,695
but they’re very different conscious, very different
consciousness, maybe to what we compare consciousness now.

586
00:45:05,725 –> 00:45:11,575
But then the question is once artificial intelligence
becomes a super intelligence, general artificial Intel.

587
00:45:13,120 –> 00:45:17,530
What then is with the consciousness that I
just wanted to add that in a way that there’s

588
00:45:17,530 –> 00:45:19,360
different opinions when it comes to this point.

589
00:45:19,420 –> 00:45:28,180
But definitely what I agree with you is that we cannot hope
that we can just continue polluting, uh, the environment and

590
00:45:28,180 –> 00:45:30,830
doing all this stuff and they will fix it for us anyways.

591
00:45:30,830 –> 00:45:32,350
So yeah, definitely.

592
00:45:33,475 –> 00:45:34,555
Yeah, exactly.

593
00:45:34,645 –> 00:45:36,565
Someone needs to get it done.

594
00:45:36,835 –> 00:45:37,025
Yeah.

595
00:45:37,045 –> 00:45:38,245
But I totally agree with you.

596
00:45:38,455 –> 00:45:44,305
And they are, of course, the positions that a bit
emphasized that things we actually can’t really

597
00:45:44,305 –> 00:45:49,615
explain sometimes appear to be like consciousness
or creativity or I don’t know, stuff like that.

598
00:45:49,795 –> 00:45:56,605
I think the point is that what comes into the minds of
people and the society, let it be through science fiction.

599
00:45:57,310 –> 00:45:59,650
Through the daily news or YouTube videos.

600
00:45:59,650 –> 00:46:00,040
I don’t know.

601
00:46:00,370 –> 00:46:02,350
Then, then we have these two positions.

602
00:46:02,350 –> 00:46:03,940
I was just trying to explain.

603
00:46:03,940 –> 00:46:09,370
So the first one is like waiting and wishing and
the second one, and let’s say just two of many

604
00:46:09,400 –> 00:46:13,870
positions, but those are, I think the most contrary
positions and the other one is like being afraid.

605
00:46:14,410 –> 00:46:17,840
And especially in Germany, we have, I think, more.

606
00:46:18,445 –> 00:46:23,935
Oh, conservatism compared to some other neighboring
countries in Europe for a couple of reasons.

607
00:46:24,145 –> 00:46:29,395
But the one thing is that this matches pretty,
perfectly being afraid of AI, because we all

608
00:46:29,395 –> 00:46:34,555
know these scientists, the science fiction movies
that are lost many of them, but in many of these

609
00:46:34,615 –> 00:46:38,575
narratives, the AI somehow, or someday turns bad.

610
00:46:38,875 –> 00:46:43,475
But to be honest, I’m more afraid of
some north Korean dictator who has never.

611
00:46:44,365 –> 00:46:45,565
AI weapons.

612
00:46:45,745 –> 00:46:50,485
And who’s able to sense, I don’t know,
south Korean or Chinese, or even Austrian

613
00:46:50,485 –> 00:46:52,885
or German people and simply kill them.

614
00:46:52,975 –> 00:46:55,045
That’s doable and that’s not intelligent.

615
00:46:55,045 –> 00:47:00,115
That’s just like a copy of some
totally weird person’s aims and goals.

616
00:47:00,535 –> 00:47:02,575
Maybe I can recommend a cool book.

617
00:47:02,575 –> 00:47:05,605
I would strongly recommend in this topic from Mexico.

618
00:47:06,910 –> 00:47:08,740
He wrote the book life three own.

619
00:47:09,370 –> 00:47:14,230
And there he has all these positions, like
in a matrix and talks about these positions.

620
00:47:14,470 –> 00:47:22,210
And I think from what I remember from the book, he
tries not to position himself in this very matrix.

621
00:47:22,660 –> 00:47:23,820
It’s more about getting to know.

622
00:47:24,520 –> 00:47:31,360
That are out there, but I think somehow, maybe
he influenced my, my expectancy or my view on

623
00:47:31,360 –> 00:47:34,870
how AI might someday and it’s going to happen.

624
00:47:35,020 –> 00:47:40,060
That’s that’s undoubtedly, but I think
that we have more rather centuries than

625
00:47:40,240 –> 00:47:42,430
years or decades until we are at the time.

626
00:47:43,360 –> 00:47:44,860
Of course, it could be like this.

627
00:47:44,860 –> 00:47:52,180
I just, that, that sort, it’s interesting that in the
AI scene, there are so many different opinions, so

628
00:47:52,190 –> 00:47:55,390
there’s really a spectrum and this is the one thing.

629
00:47:55,390 –> 00:47:56,230
And of course, yeah.

630
00:47:57,415 –> 00:48:01,975
When we look at the whole scene now, of course,
there’s people also who say things because of

631
00:48:01,975 –> 00:48:07,705
ideology or some people will say things because
it makes them become more interesting because they

632
00:48:07,705 –> 00:48:09,655
get more funding, you know, and so on and so forth.

633
00:48:09,925 –> 00:48:11,275
It’s really hard to tell also.

634
00:48:11,335 –> 00:48:11,515
Yeah.

635
00:48:12,025 –> 00:48:16,675
So there is, there’s a lot of people in Silicon
valley, they say it’s around in 20 years.

636
00:48:16,705 –> 00:48:21,895
So I mean, we most likely will be around to see,
and it will be exciting to see if this happens.

637
00:48:23,120 –> 00:48:30,260
Yet, and this is exactly, I think what you said is we
really cannot hope that the Messiah comes since effects.

638
00:48:31,510 –> 00:48:31,960
Totally.

639
00:48:32,410 –> 00:48:38,380
And if I may add just one thing, I think speaking
for myself in my own interests, I need to at least

640
00:48:38,470 –> 00:48:45,340
keep this expectancy up, I think until 2030, because
one of my current projects was going to be published

641
00:48:45,430 –> 00:48:48,130
around the end of the year is dealing executives.

642
00:48:48,805 –> 00:48:54,205
The labor market or the workforce and the
influence of AI in different industries.

643
00:48:54,205 –> 00:48:59,065
So for example, mobility or industries,
different industries, and this is going to be

644
00:48:59,095 –> 00:49:00,745
like published in the, at the end of the year.

645
00:49:00,745 –> 00:49:06,295
And we work with a pretty narrow definition of AI,
which is also being used by the European commission.

646
00:49:06,595 –> 00:49:11,095
And we also have the German center for AI research on board.

647
00:49:11,770 –> 00:49:14,530
D F K I and they share this definition.

648
00:49:14,530 –> 00:49:20,200
And I think at least until the 20, 30 lb
around for underlining the narrow expectancy.

649
00:49:22,180 –> 00:49:28,870
So, yeah, you were also saying something you wanted
to bring up a different topic as we paradigm wise.

650
00:49:29,460 –> 00:49:34,230
I think still I mentioned it before, but
it’s so important that we need to go into

651
00:49:34,230 –> 00:49:36,180
detail or at least underline it again.

652
00:49:36,360 –> 00:49:41,640
Thinking in times differently also
has one, one dimension of mindfulness.

653
00:49:41,640 –> 00:49:46,020
I think so we, as a collective, we experienced now.

654
00:49:47,560 –> 00:49:54,760
Very differently in different cultures or millionaires or
continents even, or as someone more digital or less digital.

655
00:49:55,120 –> 00:49:58,930
If you have like a news ticker on your smartphone
and you’re being like bombarded with all these

656
00:49:58,930 –> 00:50:05,020
facts about Corona or COVID-19 all the time, it’s
a very different perception as someone who like.

657
00:50:06,155 –> 00:50:07,495
The daily newspaper maybe.

658
00:50:07,795 –> 00:50:11,515
And sometimes he watches the television news at 8:00 PM.

659
00:50:11,785 –> 00:50:12,955
It’s going to be like very different.

660
00:50:13,225 –> 00:50:19,045
And it made me think of people who are constantly writing
comments or hate speech on Twitter and stuff like that.

661
00:50:19,285 –> 00:50:25,295
So the, the ranges are high, but
scientists suggest already that we need to.

662
00:50:26,095 –> 00:50:29,965
Use or maybe even emphasize the loss of pace.

663
00:50:30,205 –> 00:50:37,435
So the deceleration basically, which was caused by lockdowns
or shutdowns or stuff like that, because it’s sometimes

664
00:50:38,185 –> 00:50:45,835
even for someone like me who is actually, I believe very
fast minded, and sometimes I am not able to speak as

665
00:50:45,835 –> 00:50:54,535
fast as I think many people have that issue, but my time
I, or other put other way, when I think of the past.

666
00:50:56,470 –> 00:50:58,180
About just how many things happened.

667
00:50:58,180 –> 00:51:03,400
How many paradigms for myself have maybe
changed or at least nuances I’ve been realigned?

668
00:51:03,500 –> 00:51:08,200
It’s not just this year in particular, but like if
for every year I think I experienced so many things

669
00:51:08,200 –> 00:51:11,970
because I learned very, at a young age, how to be.

670
00:51:12,715 –> 00:51:16,405
More self-aware how to be more mindful with situations.

671
00:51:16,405 –> 00:51:19,615
I embraced practicing at least a little bit of yoga.

672
00:51:19,915 –> 00:51:26,065
Very unregular to be honest, when I was around
20 years old and I never got into that thinking

673
00:51:26,095 –> 00:51:33,775
of like perceiving yoga or alternative approaches
to workouts or breathing techniques, or so as

674
00:51:33,775 –> 00:51:37,495
being something like is a Terek spiritual, I just.

675
00:51:38,260 –> 00:51:38,950
On my own.

676
00:51:38,980 –> 00:51:39,790
It’s cool.

677
00:51:39,790 –> 00:51:40,390
It works.

678
00:51:40,630 –> 00:51:43,990
I’m around 1, 1, 180 5 tall.

679
00:51:44,110 –> 00:51:49,540
So that’s not too tall, but the back pain started
very early for me and also knee pain because I

680
00:51:49,630 –> 00:51:51,700
like to do sports, but also very unregulated.

681
00:51:52,750 –> 00:51:56,020
So I had these physical traits and
I thought yoga is a nice thing.

682
00:51:56,020 –> 00:52:02,320
So I took that and practiced it, like whenever it
works and it’s cool and it strengthened my body.

683
00:52:02,530 –> 00:52:05,350
And then I dove deeper into that
breathing techniques, stuff.

684
00:52:05,500 –> 00:52:12,520
I don’t know the names of that, but when I’m about to go
on a stage like this moment, you need to do a short time.

685
00:52:12,550 –> 00:52:16,900
You can sit there in the audience or backstage and
like the moderator or the anchorman is prepared.

686
00:52:17,830 –> 00:52:21,400
Your speech or your like announcing.

687
00:52:22,190 –> 00:52:22,650
Exactly.

688
00:52:22,890 –> 00:52:23,610
And you’ll listen to that.

689
00:52:23,610 –> 00:52:28,920
And a lot of people like get nervous then, but
it’s all a matter of preparation of course, on

690
00:52:28,920 –> 00:52:35,820
the one hand and then this breathing techniques
kick in and you just like do that and you’re cool.

691
00:52:36,000 –> 00:52:37,260
And your brain is totally there.

692
00:52:37,260 –> 00:52:41,280
And for me, everything, everything after
that happens in slow motion, basically.

693
00:52:42,625 –> 00:52:45,865
I’m I observe the audience while I am talking.

694
00:52:45,865 –> 00:52:52,555
And I think about myself, how to walk to which position in
the room next, or if it’s now the right time to do a joke,

695
00:52:52,585 –> 00:52:55,825
or I don’t know, because I like to improve, improvise a lot.

696
00:52:55,915 –> 00:52:56,665
Do you want me to Alex?

697
00:52:56,905 –> 00:53:05,355
And that all are some aspects that are doable after you
acknowledged yourself being a very self-aware being.

698
00:53:06,250 –> 00:53:10,180
And looking back in history, it’s not
that old, the idea of the enlightenment.

699
00:53:10,420 –> 00:53:15,250
Everyone can be like self-aware and can
change their own biography and learn whatever

700
00:53:15,250 –> 00:53:17,590
they want and to do a job, whichever.

701
00:53:18,805 –> 00:53:24,565
And a lot of people are more and more people are able to
do that, but we still have like communities or countries,

702
00:53:24,745 –> 00:53:31,045
like for instance, like Pakistan, where we have this
beautiful, the story of Malala, very inspiring, a girl

703
00:53:31,285 –> 00:53:33,535
who wanted just to have like education, basic education.

704
00:53:33,805 –> 00:53:40,435
And she wasn’t actually able to do that because
the Taliban regime was there and they were still

705
00:53:40,435 –> 00:53:42,725
proclaiming today that education is not made.

706
00:53:43,570 –> 00:53:44,260
Females.

707
00:53:44,770 –> 00:53:50,410
But on the other hand, we have this story and we have
this person who did it and who was able to get out

708
00:53:50,410 –> 00:53:56,650
of that system and become part of the other, I don’t
know, community, the global citizenship, I think

709
00:53:56,650 –> 00:54:03,160
because when I learned something about like humanism,
two dot, oh, we could phrase it like that, that

710
00:54:03,220 –> 00:54:08,560
some, like everyone should have equal rights equally.

711
00:54:09,295 –> 00:54:10,795
Opportunities equal.

712
00:54:10,945 –> 00:54:12,265
I don’t know, not equal payment.

713
00:54:12,385 –> 00:54:13,165
That’s not the case.

714
00:54:13,865 –> 00:54:14,965
That’s not the topic.

715
00:54:15,625 –> 00:54:24,025
I think equality comes from very individual
biographies, but like the access to education should be.

716
00:54:25,405 –> 00:54:30,675
Uh, it should be there for every beat
and it starts with basic human rights.

717
00:54:30,675 –> 00:54:37,125
It starts with basic internet connection, which we still
cope with here in Germany, because it’s still so slow.

718
00:54:37,125 –> 00:54:43,245
And we have so many fields regions where we don’t have
fast internet, but I dunno, you get the idea of, and

719
00:54:43,245 –> 00:54:48,465
that all, all that I think starts with a very broad.

720
00:54:49,645 –> 00:54:56,545
Understanding of mindfulness of what it means to be not
just in the moment, but also for myself being in the future

721
00:54:56,545 –> 00:55:01,585
scenarios, being in the history of scenarios, being with
friends, being with family, being with people, I don’t

722
00:55:01,585 –> 00:55:04,975
know, I haven’t seen before, or even people want to harm me.

723
00:55:05,455 –> 00:55:06,555
I also dealt with.

724
00:55:07,420 –> 00:55:09,340
Very very scary situations.

725
00:55:09,770 –> 00:55:16,060
I’ve been traveling around before the COVID pandemic into
many, many countries, like also involving very dark streets,

726
00:55:16,270 –> 00:55:22,180
somewhere in Cape town or in Metagene, or I don’t know,
I’ve been to China and experienced for the first time,

727
00:55:22,180 –> 00:55:24,550
what it means to be discriminated discriminated against.

728
00:55:25,240 –> 00:55:32,410
And it’s, I think so powerful to do all
these things and to get to know the world.

729
00:55:33,370 –> 00:55:40,180
Including issues and challenges as well as charge
chances and opportunities and people, primarily

730
00:55:40,180 –> 00:55:47,140
people to get to know those people better and to
understand their pains and, and every perspective.

731
00:55:48,445 –> 00:55:53,845
Drastically, whenever you move beyond boundaries
may be like the boundary of your hometown,

732
00:55:53,845 –> 00:55:55,765
or it starts with your flat or your house.

733
00:55:56,065 –> 00:55:59,035
Maybe you live in a valley or maybe
you should someday leave that valley.

734
00:55:59,275 –> 00:56:02,635
Sometimes you should leave the country or
even the continent, or I don’t know, go

735
00:56:02,635 –> 00:56:04,735
to a sailing boat and sail to New York.

736
00:56:04,765 –> 00:56:10,315
I heard that this should be a trend right
now through firefighters for future stuff.

737
00:56:10,585 –> 00:56:10,945
I don’t know.

738
00:56:12,130 –> 00:56:17,020
And that’s the last sentence that it’s important
to embrace different or also differing or

739
00:56:17,020 –> 00:56:24,760
competing perspectives, but stay respectful, um, in
contrast or for the environment like other people.

740
00:56:24,760 –> 00:56:30,130
And as long as that is granted, I think we shouldn’t have
any more conflicts anymore, but that’s a long way to go.

741
00:56:33,745 –> 00:56:41,815
My final question is really when you fast forward 100
years from now and looking back when people think of

742
00:56:41,815 –> 00:56:44,845
you, what do you want people to be saying about you?

743
00:56:46,365 –> 00:56:46,875
Wow.

744
00:56:46,905 –> 00:56:48,345
That’s a very powerful question.

745
00:56:49,815 –> 00:56:53,245
I hope there is still set that
I passed away some five years.

746
00:56:54,700 –> 00:56:59,920
So that implies that I’ve obviously lived
longer than a hundred years, but then I will

747
00:56:59,920 –> 00:57:05,320
have taken the decision on my own to leave this
planet, to make space for other generations.

748
00:57:05,890 –> 00:57:10,450
I think most of the ideas I love to spread
and they change over time in the first place.

749
00:57:10,630 –> 00:57:12,940
And in the second place, there is so many ideas.

750
00:57:13,795 –> 00:57:21,535
Or movements or changes I’d like to, or
processes I’d like to initiate in people’s

751
00:57:21,535 –> 00:57:24,295
minds that are not really linked to my person.

752
00:57:24,595 –> 00:57:29,305
I lost that one, one entrepreneur,
and he’s around 63 years old.

753
00:57:29,305 –> 00:57:37,345
I met him four years ago or so he’s still so grateful
that we met back then and in two weeks from now.

754
00:57:37,345 –> 00:57:38,695
So at the end of a.

755
00:57:39,835 –> 00:57:42,145
We will share the same stage for the first time.

756
00:57:42,195 –> 00:57:46,825
Because after that, he, he started his own
business from being like a, a C level of

757
00:57:46,825 –> 00:57:48,895
manager from a company in the west of Germany.

758
00:57:49,075 –> 00:57:50,935
And now he’s like freelancer on his own.

759
00:57:51,025 –> 00:57:54,625
And it does like purposeful things or meaningful
things for him, but, and he’s still so rightful.

760
00:57:54,625 –> 00:57:58,305
And sometimes he used to tweet
about that on Twitter and right.

761
00:57:58,365 –> 00:58:04,935
I think it’s like, and still you, I got lost that
you showed me this path and I’m still so lucky.

762
00:58:06,535 –> 00:58:10,975
Or having had the chance to embrace,
change and futures and stuff like that.

763
00:58:11,305 –> 00:58:15,715
And of course, I love that it’s better than any, any fear.

764
00:58:15,775 –> 00:58:20,395
Some client can pay me for a keynote or for a,
I don’t know, for a book or so actually I’m so

765
00:58:20,395 –> 00:58:23,035
totally generation, Y I don’t care about money.

766
00:58:23,035 –> 00:58:28,375
I just care about ideas and like seeing
the spark in the eyes of my audience.

767
00:58:28,705 –> 00:58:29,665
And that’s so cool.

768
00:58:29,785 –> 00:58:33,925
It’s so if I could choose it would
probably be that in a hundred years.

769
00:58:35,005 –> 00:58:39,535
People who would still remember
some encounter command with me.

770
00:58:40,075 –> 00:58:46,555
I don’t know where if it’s been on a stage or in a
lobby or in the train, I’m driving so much train.

771
00:58:46,555 –> 00:58:48,265
So the chances to meet me at the train are very high.

772
00:58:49,285 –> 00:58:54,595
So like in such a conversation that the people say
that’s so cool because I started rethinking things and

773
00:58:54,595 –> 00:59:02,635
he didn’t give me the answer to my life question, but
it was like, he showed me at least a couple of times.

774
00:59:03,325 –> 00:59:06,025
And I found out after that, that this was the right door.

775
00:59:06,025 –> 00:59:11,905
And if it wasn’t, I don’t care anymore because it was
the right door afterwards because of what I made from it.

776
00:59:12,625 –> 00:59:15,385
That’s actually the only thing I’d like to be remembered.

777
00:59:16,395 –> 00:59:16,755
Great.

778
00:59:16,995 –> 00:59:17,985
Thank you very much.

779
00:59:18,465 –> 00:59:19,395
Thank you so much.

780
00:59:20,175 –> 00:59:21,495
It was a great conversation.

781
00:59:21,705 –> 00:59:23,145
I hope I have to go back one day.

782
00:59:23,205 –> 00:59:23,925
It’s continued.

783
00:59:24,045 –> 00:59:24,645
Yeah, same.

784
00:59:24,855 –> 00:59:26,155
Thank you so much for having me Xerxes.

785
00:59:26,175 –> 00:59:26,325
Yeah.

786
00:59:26,415 –> 00:59:26,805
Thanks.

787
00:59:26,985 –> 00:59:27,255
Bye.

788
00:59:29,975 –> 00:59:34,835
Thank you for staying tuned for this
edition of challenging paradigm X.

789
00:59:35,255 –> 00:59:39,968
If you like this episode with kayak on that,
feel free to share with your community.

790
00:59:40,046 –> 00:59:46,115
So Kai’s message gets spread even further in the
show notes, you’ll find the links to Kai’s work.

791
00:59:46,550 –> 00:59:49,250
Please hit subscribe and rate my podcast.

792
00:59:49,280 –> 00:59:55,781
If you like it, I’d also be very glad if you write
me a review, If you have any questions or comments,

793
00:59:55,811 –> 01:00:04,091
feel free to contact me next week, we are up with
another edition of challenging paradigm X until then.

794
01:00:04,181 –> 01:00:06,041
I wish you a great week.