August 12, 2021 xerxes

In this episode, Tom Lombardo talks about the role of science fiction for humanity, about consciousness, mythology, psychology and the future.

About Tom Lombardo

Thomas Lombardo, Ph.D. is the Director of the Center for Future Consciousness, Editor of Future Consciousness Insights (formally Wisdom and the Future), Professor Emeritus and Retired Faculty Chair of Psychology, Philosophy, and the Future at Rio Salado College, and past Director of The Wisdom Page. He is a Fellow and Executive Board member of the World Futures Studies Federation and member and contributing editor of numerous futurist organizations and publications. He has published nine books and over sixty articles and given an equal number of professional presentations on many futurist topics, including wisdom and the future of education; the future of consciousness and the human mind; dystopian and utopian thought; theories of the future; and science fiction. His newest books include Future Consciousness: The Path to Purposeful Evolution, winner of the 2017 Network Book Award; Science Fiction: The Evolutionary Mythology of the Future: Vol. I – Prometheus to the Martians (2018), hailed as “a brilliant piece of work” and “a ‘must-read’ in the study both of science fiction and the future;” and The Pursuit of Virtue (2019), “A brilliant, timely, erudite exposure of the shallow, divisive individualism of modern life.” He has just completed two more volumes of his Science Fiction book series. He is a graduate of the University of Connecticut and University of Minnesota and a graduate fellow of Cornell University. Presently he lives with his wife Jeanne in the Phoenix, Arizona metropolitan area. 

Links

Main Center for Future Consciousness website: https://www.centerforfutureconsciousness.com. Links to online copies of all my published articles can be accessed on this site. 

Information on all my books and links to purchase them: https://www.centerforfutureconsciousness.com/book_info.htm

Access to all videos and live podcasts, including YouTube Channel: https://www.centerforfutureconsciousness.com/online_videos.htm

Center for Future Consciousness Video School: https://cfc-school.thinkific.com/

Future Consciousness Insights Newsletter: https://www.centerforfutureconsciousness.com/archived_newsletters.htm

Transcript of the Interview

This text has been auto-transcripted. Please excuse mistakes.

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Welcome to Challenging ParadigmX

Does science fiction facilitate the future
evolution of humanity and the conscious yeah.

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Is science-fiction possibly a solution to create
awareness for important issues in society.

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How does science-fiction shape our future and reality?

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My guest today is Tom Lombardo.

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He’s a psychologist philosopher and futurist the co-founder
and the director of the center for future consciousness.

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Editor of future consciousness insights, professor
emeritus and retired faculty chair of psychology
philosophy and the future at Rio Salado college.

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Fellow and executive board member of the world futures
studies Federation, as well as member and contributing
editor of numerous features, organizations and publications.

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He is the author of nine books and many articles
focusing on futurist topics, including wisdom in the
future of education, the future of consciousness
and the human minds, dystopian and utopian
thought theories of the future and scientific.

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In this conversation, we mostly examined the role of
science fiction for futures thinking and humanity.

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So if you are interested in this topics, stay tuned.

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Hi, here’s Xerxes.

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And today I’m here with Tom Lombardo.

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Tom, please introduce yourself.

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Who are you and what do you do?

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Yeah.

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Good morning or good evening, sir.

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Axes.

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And, uh, my name is Tom Lombardo and I’m, I’m the
director of the center for future consciousness,
which is based in the Phoenix, Arizona, Metro area.

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I’m a futurist, a philosopher, a PhD in psychology though.

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And I’m a member of the world.

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Future steady Federation.

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I’m on the executive board.

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For the world features steady Federation
and I’m also a fellow of the world.

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Future steady Federation and fellows are futurists who
have, uh, been recognized as making some significant
contribution globally to the study of the future.

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I may retired college professor and taught at
various colleges and universities for 34 years.

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And now I devote myself primarily.

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To, uh, teaching mostly online, doing
webinars, mostly online and also writing books.

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And I’m just finishing up two new books at
the moment on the history of science fiction.

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That’s a brief introduction except for the fact that
I grew up in new England and slowly migrated from the
east coast of the United States over to the west coast
and to the deserts of Arizona, which I definitely did.

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You have a broad education and backgrounds,
and you’ve done a lot of different things.

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And also you connect a lot of different branches.

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How come that you do what you do?

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Uh, yes.

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Uh, Xerxes you actually, when we first talked, mentioned
the term turning point, and people often have turning
points in their life when they move perhaps in a
different direction from when they were moving before
often those turning points are what determine where
you end up with, or the pathway that you move along.

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And when I stopped and thought about that,
I thought, well, actually, I’ve had lots
of different turning points along the way.

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And some of them, I created myself.

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For example, at one point I decided that I needed
to leave academia as a teacher, as a professor, and
get out into the real world and dive into things.

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And that was a, a learning experience
that was both psychologically traumatic.

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But in the end, rather educational I’ve had various, like
I said, various points at which something important happens
and it, in some way or another it’s structured where you
hit when I was young or an early significant experience
was becoming enthralled with science fiction as a youth.

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And it gave me a sense, the cosmos
in the big picture of things.

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And, uh, the possibilities of the future and the
possibilities that exist out in the universe.

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And, um, as a main feature, I would guess of my thinking
writing consciousness is I’ve always been attracted to
big picture, big perspective, cosmic issues and themes,
which is how I got interested also later on in college.

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And encountering philosophy and country Play-Doh and
then Aristotle, and then all of the other significant
philosophers who looked at the big picture of it all
and what it all means and how one goes about trying to
understand it becoming very specifically enthralled with
spinosa and is massive metaphysical system that he had.

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So, um, there was science fiction, uh, discovering it.

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There was philosophy discovery.

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There was jumping out into the real world or not
the real world, the alternate reality, and getting
away from academia, which was a learning experience.

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And, uh, uh, later on, and I’ve just, I
got a highlight a couple more later on.

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I discovered the, a study of time
and evolution and in particular, the.

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President of the international society of time, JT
Frazier, who I went to listen to one night and just
blew me away and turned everything upside down and got
very fascinated with his ideas on what is time and why
is there time and how does that fit into everything?

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And what is evolution?

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What is this that’s going on around us?

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I suppose, moving to Arizona was also a
significant point in my life because it was
after I moved to Arizona that I realized.

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Uh, I was fascinated from many different perspectives
with the study of the future and actually started to
teach it when I got out here to Arizona back in the 1990s.

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And before I was interested in science fiction
philosophy evolution, but I hadn’t put it all together.

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And in Arizona, I ended up putting it together and
starting to teach courses on the future and started to
write on the future and joined the world future society.

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And then the world future study for them.

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So there was a, that was a big event.

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And then maybe 10 years later, I got very interested
in the study of wisdom and met somebody who had a, a
really, uh, excellent website called the wisdom page.

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His name was copper and MacDonald, and, uh, we
became friends and I began writing on wisdom and
the study of the future and future consciousness.

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And it was a big thing.

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Back in the early part of the millennium.

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When I got into the wisdom, connected
it up with consciousness in the future.

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And I suppose not as I suppose, definitely another one
other big event that influenced me along the way was that
meeting my prison, wife, Jeanie Lombardo, and after Jeanie
and I got together and were married, I interestingly became
much more productive as a writer than I ever had before.

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I had thrown a lot of time and energy
into teaching and, um, and other things.

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But once we got together, I really started to
publish lots of articles and my book productivity
went up, whatever it was, Jeannie settled me
down and gave me some focus in the process there.

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So that’s just sort of a brief history.

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Uh, things that impacted me attorney points.

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Sometimes it was the media, right.

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Hit me on the head, whether I was expecting it or not.

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And sometimes I intentionally went after it when,
after a change, but there have been surprises.

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Yeah.

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There have been things that have
happened that I wasn’t anticipating.

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And then boom, there was this
revelation for whatever reason.

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Cause you also mentioned at the end of it.

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For the end of the answer to that question is a back
about 10 years ago, I decided to write a, uh, intellectual
autobiography, uh, which I published about 10 years ago,
Katie and I actually wrote this together and mind flight.

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And it’s a, it’s a story about the evolution of
my thinking from, um, a teenager up to a 10 year.

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So what I was talking about just now I talk
about in a lot more detail with more drama
in the whole thing in this book, mind.

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So you mentioned that science fiction is a, was a very
important starting point for you and your whole career.

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And this is also one of the things you were well known
for, for your expert knowledge and science fiction.

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So I’m really interested.

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How do you perceive science fiction
as a, as a branch of literature?

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So how do you perceive it?

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What is the role of science fiction?

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Good question and got a lot to say here’s
some, I think main, main ideas, main points
that would have about science fiction.

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Number one, science fiction is actually about the future of
everything, not just the future of science and technology,
but the future of everything, which includes society,
the human mind, ethics, all the dimensions of the future.

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Get covered in science fiction stories.

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And in fact, a really good science
fiction writer is able to create.

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Integrative pictures of the future that
include all the dimensions of human reality.

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And beyond in fact, science fiction
even goes beyond the future.

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And that it gets into alternate universe has alternate
dimensions, alternate timeline science, which
is sometimes both delving into the past as well.

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So that’s one thing we shouldn’t just associate
science fiction with science and technology.

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Secondly, science fiction is an expression.

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Of the human effort to speculate on an, understand
the big picture of the cosmos in space and time.

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That is science fiction takes
you beyond the immediate hearing.

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Now.

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And stretches your imagination out into the vast
extent of time, both past and future, and the
vast extent of space, the universe in existence.

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So on their way in.

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Uh, connects up with philosophy because philosophy
gets into the big picture of things too.

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But science fiction does it in narrative form.

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That is science fiction is stories.

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You know, it’s not abstract, theoretical expositions
it’s stories, stories, which wrap your attention.

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Grab your emotions.

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And that brings me to a third
main thing about science fiction.

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And, um, I, a history of science fiction I proposed at the
beginning is that science fiction is our modern mythology.

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Or mythologies because there’s more than one story,
more than one narrative in science fiction actually
evolved out of our ancient classical mythologies.

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And if you were to, if you come up with a list of the
qualities or characteristics of ancient mythologies, that.

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Fantastical.

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They often had ethical messages to them.

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They involve rituals and participation.

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They have icons and numerous other qualities and
you align them up with qualities of science fiction.

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The qualities are all the same.

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Now, what change, what has changed is that the
theories, the reality that ancient mythologies
assume, say for example, a God centered.

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A creationist theory or reality that,
or the earth is 4,000, 6,000 years old.

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The theory of reality changed as we move into modern times.

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So our modern mythologies, which are science fiction.

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Are informed by modern theories of
reality versus more ancient theories.

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And that’s not an absolute by any means
because science fiction writers still have
frequently talked about and discussed.

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Uh, and not discussed, talked about and included
in their stories, ancient theories of reality.

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Uh, for example, um, just to throw one in here, uh, Rogers,
alas, and he’s Lord of light, which was a award-winning
science fiction, novel presented a futurist techno
version of the Hindu deities and the Buddha and a modern
science fiction setting, techno enhanced, uh, uh, duties.

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But, uh, science fiction is a mythology.

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In, in that it provides us with narratives that
emotionally motivationaly stimulate us, inform us and
inspire us in the same way that ancient mythologies did.

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And so a fourth thing to bring in here is that,
and this is connected with the mythology point.

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Science fiction is the most influential.

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Form of thinking about the future in contemporary
times more people either watch it or read it or
influenced by it than any other approach to the future.

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And the reason why in part is that
science fiction impacts the whole person.

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It doesn’t just simply stimulate the insulin.

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It stimulates one’s emotions.

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One’s motivation, stimulates one’s values.

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It hits the whole person.

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And so we engage with it and we
participate in the reality holistically.

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That’s why it’s so powerful.

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That’s why it’s so influential.

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So I suppose, yeah, those are four
key points about a science fiction.

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Well, maybe I’m wondering.

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Because I think this is important.

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Very important too.

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You can see science fiction as it is a story about
in science fiction is not something just recent
science fiction has been evolving for decades.

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If not decades, centuries, and centuries and
centuries, you could see it as a approach to
facilitating the evolution, the future evolution
of humanity and the conscious mind in that it.

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Gives us ideas about the possibilities
of the future in existence.

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It inspires us to think and behave and act
and be different than we were in the past.

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So it’s actually kind of an ongoing collective activity
to evolve ourselves and particularly evolve our minds.

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And we have many, many different
ideas that come up in science.

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You know, from physical technologies to increase
mental abilities, to changes in how we communicate
and relate to each other, to, um, alien life forms.

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And so we have this incredibly diverse set of
topics that get covered, all possibilities of
the future, all things that often stimulated us
into thinking and doing and behaving differently.

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So it facilitates our evolution.

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Uh, what I’m really interested in is, uh, when
it comes to science fiction, I find it always
very interesting that as a branch of literature,
a lot of people don’t take it too seriously.

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Why do you think, is that the case?

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Well, one of the sources of a modern science
fiction is rather cheap mass produced magazine, dime
novel stories that were written for young males.

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A hundred, 150 years ago, simple adventure tales.

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So science fiction early on acquired a reputation.

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For catering to the juvenile, to, to the simple minded,
but that was just part of the era to do science fiction.

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Also part of the heritage of science fiction was HG
Wells and HG Wells was an extremely well-read intelligent
articulate thinker who is definitely, and a great writer
too, who is definitely not simplistic or juvenile.

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Or trashy in his literature by any means.

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And also a lot of people’s contact with science fiction
is more through the movies than through literature.

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And so the movies just in general, tend to dumb
things down in terms of plot character, not
always, but lots of times and have formula types
of a series that aren’t very intelligent or.

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But I always say to people, well, if you think science
fiction, as a form of literature is not up to snuff,
then go read Dan Simmons, Hyperion, or, uh, Neal
Stephenson, snow crash, or all of Stapleton star maker.

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And I can present a list of tens and tens into
hundreds of really intelligent, deep rate novels that
have been written in the history of science fiction.

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One of the, one of the premier science fiction
writers of the 1940s and fifties theater sturgeon.

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Somebody said to him once that 90% of
science fiction was junk or trash or
whatever the word was, he and sturgeon reply.

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Well, you know, 90% of everything is trash
and junk science fiction is no exception.

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So actually in my experience, in my life
experiences, A very well worked out science fiction,
novel or story is as intellectually challenging
and mind expansive as any kind of literal.

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No, it, it surpasses, I mean, I’ve read that the of
scheme, you know, so I know a great literature is,
and it’s not like I don’t, I didn’t thoroughly enjoy
the brothers Karamazov offer crime and punishment.

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Those are great maps, but so was Hyperion a great novel.

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So it was star maker.

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And so was, uh, let’s see, uh, the island of Dr.

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Moreau is a very fascinating, interestingly.

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And the list goes on and on and up.

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So yeah, science fiction, you may have a
reputation of not being good literature, being
juvenile at being for young males, but there’s
because of certain things about its history.

169
00:19:03,800 –> 00:19:21,080
And also because people focus on the movies and
don’t really spend too much time looking at the great
works of science fiction of which there are many,
many, in fact, on my website, I have a list of, in my
opinion, the best science fiction novels ever written
it’s on my center for future conscious as well.

170
00:19:21,755 –> 00:19:25,055
So go look at it and pick out one or
two or three or whatever and read them.

171
00:19:25,145 –> 00:19:31,355
And when you read them, you’ll see, you know, this is
very deep, challenging, thoughtful, artistic stuff.

172
00:19:31,805 –> 00:19:32,105
Yeah.

173
00:19:33,245 –> 00:19:35,395
Of the list of also for the listeners.

174
00:19:35,405 –> 00:19:39,535
I would like to know, because I looked
at the list and it’s an extensive list.

175
00:19:39,535 –> 00:19:41,605
Is that the rank list, it is a rank list.

176
00:19:41,815 –> 00:19:44,045
That’s a personality trait of me.

177
00:19:45,380 –> 00:19:49,430
Throughout all my life, I create lists and I rank things.

178
00:19:49,430 –> 00:19:51,260
I just, that my mind goes that direction.

179
00:19:51,530 –> 00:19:53,750
I just have to ask, which of these I think is better.

180
00:19:53,750 –> 00:19:54,890
And what order is it better?

181
00:19:54,890 –> 00:19:58,130
You know, and I did that, so
it’s rant, but it does fluctuate.

182
00:19:58,160 –> 00:19:59,110
I keep revising.

183
00:19:59,210 –> 00:20:01,610
So I sometimes will change things around a bit.

184
00:20:02,885 –> 00:20:04,415
Well, because it’s an extensive list.

185
00:20:04,415 –> 00:20:09,155
I think it’s like 250 books or even
more so that’s quite the ranking.

186
00:20:09,175 –> 00:20:09,445
Yeah.

187
00:20:09,715 –> 00:20:10,855
And it’s not written in stone.

188
00:20:10,855 –> 00:20:14,155
And after a while it becomes a bit ambiguous, not ambiguous.

189
00:20:14,155 –> 00:20:14,965
That’s not the right word.

190
00:20:15,475 –> 00:20:24,775
It’s not as a definitive as it might appear because I
could roughly say, well, you know, these 10 are the best.

191
00:20:25,475 –> 00:20:31,445
But now then the next 10, some people
might think they’re just as good or maybe
a little bit better, et cetera, et cetera.

192
00:20:31,715 –> 00:20:33,215
There’s a bit of ambiguity in it.

193
00:20:33,305 –> 00:20:38,465
You know, how do you differentiate
between number 210 and number 250?

194
00:20:38,465 –> 00:20:41,105
Not very much, even though I put him in a certain order.

195
00:20:41,395 –> 00:20:41,695
Yeah.

196
00:20:41,845 –> 00:20:46,615
But the ones that I have on top and
there is, there is a, the logic to it.

197
00:20:46,675 –> 00:20:54,385
And there is a certain, uh, at least in terms of
my standards, a certain difference between the ones
I have at the top and the ones I have the bottom.

198
00:20:56,390 –> 00:20:57,710
Yeah, that’s good to know.

199
00:20:57,740 –> 00:21:00,350
And I also read, I also look at other people’s lives too.

200
00:21:00,620 –> 00:21:05,660
I’ve looked at lots of people’s different lists
about the best science fiction novels, et cetera.

201
00:21:05,780 –> 00:21:05,900
Yeah.

202
00:21:05,910 –> 00:21:17,030
By the way, she just interject on that is that the
science fiction community for a long time has also
had that habit, that desire to rank and award things.

203
00:21:17,210 –> 00:21:19,910
And so they have Hugo awards every year.

204
00:21:20,570 –> 00:21:26,240
They have Nebula awards every year where
they give out awards for the best novels,
second, best, third, best, et cetera.

205
00:21:26,600 –> 00:21:36,920
And there are multiple, multiple websites
up there that have comparable lists that
their creators have put together as well.

206
00:21:37,760 –> 00:21:39,860
Best movies, best novels.

207
00:21:40,010 –> 00:21:42,140
So it’s a common thing that people in science fiction.

208
00:21:42,880 –> 00:21:49,600
So just to understand from your perspective and
your standard, what is good science fiction?

209
00:21:49,630 –> 00:21:55,210
Like what would make it on the top of your list
compared to things that are not on the top of the list?

210
00:21:55,390 –> 00:21:59,470
So how would you, what makes a
good science fiction novel for you?

211
00:21:59,500 –> 00:22:05,380
Yeah, the first one that pops into my
head, this isn’t necessarily in any order,
the first one that pops into my head.

212
00:22:06,380 –> 00:22:12,920
Do I remember that novel or story or think about
it a year after I read it, is this stay in my mind?

213
00:22:12,980 –> 00:22:18,960
Is it somehow something that grabs my attention
and doesn’t just go in one ear and out the other.

214
00:22:19,010 –> 00:22:20,810
There’s something about it that stuck there.

215
00:22:21,340 –> 00:22:24,310
Secondly, is it creative?

216
00:22:24,400 –> 00:22:25,450
Is it inventive?

217
00:22:25,790 –> 00:22:31,810
And of course, you know, people pull up and
think that they’re being creative invented
when somebody else has said that before.

218
00:22:33,335 –> 00:22:42,875
You have to have a sense of what has been written
to make a decent judgment about whether this
particular book really is inventive or creative.

219
00:22:43,955 –> 00:22:50,315
A third thing is that it has interesting, uh, characters.

220
00:22:50,585 –> 00:22:53,315
The characters are done well, and there’s a plot.

221
00:22:54,590 –> 00:22:56,180
Of a dramatic plot.

222
00:22:56,210 –> 00:22:58,100
That’s engaging in some manner or form.

223
00:22:58,530 –> 00:23:01,550
You could have all different kinds of plots too.

224
00:23:01,700 –> 00:23:05,030
You could have mysteries or comedies or adventures.

225
00:23:05,270 –> 00:23:07,760
So it’s not like there’s any one
particular kind of plot here.

226
00:23:08,060 –> 00:23:15,140
And I, I like stories that are, that
impressed me as intelligent and rich and.

227
00:23:15,935 –> 00:23:18,965
And their portrayal of a reality.

228
00:23:19,295 –> 00:23:20,275
I think of that.

229
00:23:20,275 –> 00:23:21,125
I mentioned them already.

230
00:23:21,125 –> 00:23:28,175
I’ve mentioned them again, like Hyperion
and a snow crash for two examples.

231
00:23:28,355 –> 00:23:37,625
Also, as I introduced another one, Kim Stanley
Robinson’s Mars trilogy are very rich and
intricate and their detail of the reality.

232
00:23:38,275 –> 00:23:39,895
That get described.

233
00:23:40,075 –> 00:23:47,665
You could see a very fluffle and, uh, minded work,
creating these pictures of the future or other planets.

234
00:23:47,905 –> 00:23:57,685
And, um, let’s see, uh, what other ones, perhaps
I’ve already covered this in what I said,
but the word pops into my mind here, insight.

235
00:23:58,225 –> 00:24:07,585
And in particular, can you through a story
that flows and has the interesting character.

236
00:24:08,405 –> 00:24:15,995
Generate some fundamental, deep
enlightening, novel insight into reality.

237
00:24:16,475 –> 00:24:17,615
Yeah, for sure.

238
00:24:17,675 –> 00:24:17,945
Yeah.

239
00:24:18,035 –> 00:24:30,545
Now is there necessarily that every story has all
those things, but the more of that, the, it has,
the more I want to, the more I would identify it as
you know, better, you know, higher ranking up there.

240
00:24:30,575 –> 00:24:37,325
I mean, the ones I rank on the list, the top 10 on the
list are all the Stapleton star maker, which is crazy.

241
00:24:38,000 –> 00:24:47,510
And immense and scope the entire future history
of the universe and intelligence Hyperion,
which is based on trust of Canterbury tales.

242
00:24:47,510 –> 00:24:54,290
And it’s a very modern, rich, dramatic, and a Canticle
for Liebowitz, which is a religious futuristic novel.

243
00:24:54,440 –> 00:24:57,740
That’s very moving at the end
and in other ones on that list.

244
00:24:57,740 –> 00:25:03,560
And then, you know, if I were to go down the list,
I would say, well, here’s the qualities in each of
these that I would say, make it such a good name.

245
00:25:06,560 –> 00:25:16,220
So when it comes to futurism, would you say that insight
is the most important thing from the futurism perspective?

246
00:25:16,220 –> 00:25:21,320
Why science fiction is important
for foresight for future studies?

247
00:25:21,610 –> 00:25:32,860
Yeah, I would say that science fiction is important
because it engages all of the dimensions of the human mind.

248
00:25:33,905 –> 00:25:35,855
It stimulates all the dimensions.

249
00:25:35,855 –> 00:25:37,115
It’s not just insight.

250
00:25:37,415 –> 00:25:42,005
It stimulates one’s imagination, arouses one’s emotions.

251
00:25:42,395 –> 00:25:45,095
Like for example, to throw something in here.

252
00:25:45,575 –> 00:26:02,335
When we think about the future, when we imagine
possibilities regarding the future, it’s important to
keep in mind that as human beings are most primordial.

253
00:26:03,155 –> 00:26:10,205
Reactions to the future, our hope
versus fear, basic human emotions.

254
00:26:10,715 –> 00:26:13,535
I may afraid of the future, or am I hopeful about it?

255
00:26:13,955 –> 00:26:31,535
So if one is to delve into the, um, our understanding
and how we react to the future, it’s important to
address human emotion because human emotion is a
fundamental aspect of our consciousness about the future.

256
00:26:32,630 –> 00:26:54,320
So where philosophy may just stimulate the intellect
or imagination or even insight and intuition or
future studies may focus more on those qualities as
well as their cognitive science fiction addresses
the entire spectrum of human consciousness.

257
00:26:54,770 –> 00:26:59,780
And so that’s why science fiction is available.

258
00:27:00,950 –> 00:27:29,090
In our consciousness of the future, why it’s important
to read and participate in the various mythologies or
stories or narratives that good science fiction presents
because it stimulates all aspects of the human mind
and moves us along on all dimensions and people are
not primarily moved or do they change as a consequence?

259
00:27:30,005 –> 00:27:41,525
Of reason they often change as a consequence
of more fundamental psychological
dimensions, like fear and hope, et cetera.

260
00:27:41,855 –> 00:27:42,095
Yeah.

261
00:27:42,125 –> 00:27:48,215
So, you know, it’s a mistake to try to reason
people into a different way of thinking.

262
00:27:48,815 –> 00:27:56,765
You know, sometimes it works, but a lot of times it
doesn’t, but you can sure as hell move people, if you
can get them added emotional level, what science fiction.

263
00:27:56,765 –> 00:27:56,855
Right.

264
00:27:57,890 –> 00:27:58,220
Yeah.

265
00:27:58,340 –> 00:28:00,590
So insight is in their insights important.

266
00:28:00,740 –> 00:28:01,580
Yes, for sure.

267
00:28:01,820 –> 00:28:04,760
But so is all the other dimensions of the human mind?

268
00:28:04,880 –> 00:28:14,090
It’s holistic science-fiction is holistic and that
moves people more effectively, enlightens people
more effectively than, um, uh, just words and reason.

269
00:28:14,300 –> 00:28:18,650
That’s part of the reason why science
fiction also is strongly associated with the.

270
00:28:19,535 –> 00:28:23,615
There’s the whole history of science
fiction art and then science fiction cinema.

271
00:28:23,795 –> 00:28:33,455
And so adding in visualization, just as
another dimension to the experience of science
fiction, to see it as well as to read about it.

272
00:28:34,715 –> 00:28:36,275
Also going into this direction.

273
00:28:36,275 –> 00:28:45,095
I wonder, for example, a lot of people say that star Trek
had a very major influence on how the world is today.

274
00:28:45,125 –> 00:28:45,365
Right?

275
00:28:45,605 –> 00:28:54,815
For one thing from, uh, the social aspect,
for example, you see captain car kissing or
hoorah the first time in, in movie history.

276
00:28:55,325 –> 00:28:58,805
That’s a white man kisses, a black woman on television.

277
00:28:58,865 –> 00:29:07,565
And I’m up to all those things that, that, uh,
gimmicks in star Trek that are now becoming
reality or have already become reality.

278
00:29:07,985 –> 00:29:15,005
So how do you see the role of science fiction
really for also envisioning the future?

279
00:29:15,335 –> 00:29:23,555
Bye bye, Paul, should I say, or do you see that science
fiction also has a role of that you humans and societies.

280
00:29:24,955 –> 00:29:29,605
A kind of future that’s popular
science fiction has presented to us.

281
00:29:29,695 –> 00:29:30,415
It goes both ways.

282
00:29:30,415 –> 00:29:34,195
Do you think it’s just, or do you
think it’s just a coincidence?

283
00:29:35,265 –> 00:29:36,855
Let’s go back to science fiction again.

284
00:29:37,065 –> 00:29:41,325
Science fiction is modern mythology mythology.

285
00:29:41,895 –> 00:29:46,545
As a mode of consciousness goes
back thousands upon thousands of.

286
00:29:47,555 –> 00:29:50,015
Pre predating recorded history.

287
00:29:50,075 –> 00:29:53,765
By the time you get the recorded history, you
already got lots of different mythologies.

288
00:29:54,095 –> 00:29:57,365
Humans need to make sense out of their existence.

289
00:29:57,365 –> 00:30:01,565
Make sense out of the world, around them,
give them something to motivate themselves.

290
00:30:01,805 –> 00:30:08,615
Our earliest mythologies were narratives stories
that provided meaning and purpose for you.

291
00:30:09,485 –> 00:30:16,835
And we’re able to motivate and inform us as to
what, what was the good, what this all mean?

292
00:30:16,835 –> 00:30:17,735
Where are we going?

293
00:30:17,735 –> 00:30:18,425
Where are we heading?

294
00:30:18,425 –> 00:30:23,015
You know, the Egyptians, the
Babylonians articulated mythologies.

295
00:30:23,165 –> 00:30:25,085
So did the Asian Indians.

296
00:30:25,235 –> 00:30:27,575
So the Chinese five Chinese sensible.

297
00:30:28,265 –> 00:30:31,385
Five six, 7,000 years ago, we need it.

298
00:30:31,585 –> 00:30:46,865
It is a, it is a capacity that emerged in the evolution
of our consciousness at a certain point in time
to give us a coherence, understanding inspiration.

299
00:30:47,015 –> 00:30:48,485
We are storytellers.

300
00:30:48,515 –> 00:30:52,055
And so we tell stories about the
universe and life and everything.

301
00:30:52,385 –> 00:30:53,975
This is what science fiction is.

302
00:30:53,975 –> 00:30:54,455
Now.

303
00:30:54,635 –> 00:30:56,075
This is our modern version.

304
00:30:56,780 –> 00:31:03,710
Uh, storytelling to inform us and
inspire us about where we’re heading.

305
00:31:03,740 –> 00:31:04,910
What does it all mean?

306
00:31:05,330 –> 00:31:06,740
What is my role in it?

307
00:31:06,740 –> 00:31:09,470
What are the possibilities out there ahead of us?

308
00:31:09,740 –> 00:31:21,560
And there is a history that goes both ways on this, in that
society and culture, and what’s going on in it influences
what comes up, what gets created in science fiction.

309
00:31:21,860 –> 00:31:25,250
The fact that Kirk and the hoorah kissed and started.

310
00:31:26,555 –> 00:31:42,485
Wasn’t necessarily just somebody taking
the lead, but actually was instigated by a
growing sense of openness to human diversity,
racial diversity within Maine culture thing.

311
00:31:42,665 –> 00:31:50,225
So if somebody, if they had done that 30 years
earlier, it would have not been a reflection
of the contemporary culture at that time.

312
00:31:50,435 –> 00:31:53,555
And would probably people would
have had a much different reaction.

313
00:31:54,335 –> 00:31:58,925
So it both reflects their culture
as well as it influences it.

314
00:31:59,195 –> 00:32:01,805
So it provides, leave, provides direction.

315
00:32:01,925 –> 00:32:06,005
It goes around in a circle and there’s
definitely lots and lots of examples of this.

316
00:32:06,355 –> 00:32:12,935
There’s a book that was written by a science fiction
writer about 20 years ago, called the dreams.

317
00:32:12,995 –> 00:32:18,365
Our stuff is made of how science
fiction conquered the world.

318
00:32:18,935 –> 00:32:23,005
And so that book does a pretty good job of showing.

319
00:32:23,795 –> 00:32:31,175
How, uh, numerous occasions, things that have
popped up in science fiction have an impact
on people’s minds and people’s behaviors.

320
00:32:31,475 –> 00:32:37,715
Just like things that popped up in the ancient mythologies
definitely influenced people’s minds and their behavior.

321
00:32:38,255 –> 00:32:45,755
And so it’s a loop, it’s a loop running between
the stories, the narratives and the culture
and how the culture influences the stories.

322
00:32:46,610 –> 00:32:54,020
And now, like right now we have lots of very pessimistic
and dark and depressive stories that we tell.

323
00:32:54,320 –> 00:33:03,470
Now that’s a reflection of what in us, but even if
it’s a reflection of stuff in us, it’s also feeding
back on us and making us even more depressed.

324
00:33:03,710 –> 00:33:04,040
Okay.

325
00:33:04,160 –> 00:33:15,650
Like what a main thing I’m interested in, uh,
above and beyond and including science fiction
works its way into, this is how do we facilitate
the future evolution of the consciousness?

326
00:33:16,430 –> 00:33:17,420
And what does that mean?

327
00:33:17,900 –> 00:33:19,730
You know, and I think we need to do that.

328
00:33:20,060 –> 00:33:33,140
And along multiple dimensions, not simply just to
be smarter, but also to be wiser also to be more
emotionally, motivationaly constructive to be able
to expand our consciousness more toward the future.

329
00:33:33,410 –> 00:33:34,160
That’s important.

330
00:33:34,160 –> 00:33:37,460
We don’t do very well at that, even though
we do it, we don’t do very well at it.

331
00:33:37,670 –> 00:33:38,780
And we forget history.

332
00:33:38,780 –> 00:33:44,180
We continually are forgetting history and having to
recommit the same damn sins over and over and over.

333
00:33:44,900 –> 00:33:46,970
So how do we evolve our consciousness?

334
00:33:47,210 –> 00:33:56,570
And I think science fiction definitely is an
expression of that, of efforts in that direction, as
well as a, uh, a great, uh, stimulus for doing it.

335
00:33:56,690 –> 00:33:59,060
I tell this is back to the future of everything issue.

336
00:33:59,240 –> 00:34:10,780
I mentioned in one of my books on the history of
science fiction, that actually two of them that
HG Wells and over Stapleton who were probably.

337
00:34:11,465 –> 00:34:31,475
The two most influential science fiction writers ever,
both believed that the key to our future a better
future was not the evolution of our gadgets, but
the evolution of our mind and that that was going to
save us if anything did, that’s what they focused on.

338
00:34:31,925 –> 00:34:34,895
So I think science fiction
contributes into that addresses there.

339
00:34:35,075 –> 00:34:48,200
And that’s really, you know, in my mind, that’s sort
of like, We’re in thinking right now, what I’m doing
right now is interesting concern in the question
of what would it mean to further revolve our minds?

340
00:34:48,410 –> 00:34:50,600
How does it fit into the big picture of things?

341
00:34:50,810 –> 00:34:53,210
How does science fiction contribute ideas into it?

342
00:34:53,540 –> 00:34:54,980
Do people find it?

343
00:34:55,190 –> 00:35:00,170
Other people react to the notion that
our human consciousness needs to evolve?

344
00:35:00,470 –> 00:35:02,060
You know, it can’t stay where it is.

345
00:35:02,090 –> 00:35:03,500
Is that doing us any good year?

346
00:35:03,800 –> 00:35:05,330
And we create less depressing.

347
00:35:06,215 –> 00:35:09,695
Miserable images and cause lots
of trouble with herself, you know?

348
00:35:10,265 –> 00:35:15,395
And we keep thinking that somehow money and
yeah, just, they’re going to get us out of
this, but it’s, this will get us out of it.

349
00:35:20,120 –> 00:35:30,380
So science fiction is, is it’s the main thing that you feel
like will help us in the evolution of our consciousness
or it’s also other things other than science fiction.

350
00:35:30,410 –> 00:35:30,560
Yeah.

351
00:35:30,760 –> 00:35:36,250
There’s other things besides science fiction, there
is, um, understand the discipline of human psychology.

352
00:35:36,340 –> 00:35:43,330
For example, that will help us understanding
evolution will help us and seeing what that means.

353
00:35:44,105 –> 00:35:51,665
And not to just not to discount it, but also developments
in technology and technological enhancement will help us.

354
00:35:51,935 –> 00:36:09,995
And throughout our history, long-term history,
human long-term history, going back thousands and
thousands of years, there have been numerous efforts
from philosophy, psychology, humanistic thought,
spirituality, meditation, and other approaches.

355
00:36:10,715 –> 00:36:16,955
That attempt to in various ways,
enhance or improve human consciousness.

356
00:36:17,225 –> 00:36:21,515
All of that is ongoing and all of
that needs to continue to be ongoing.

357
00:36:21,995 –> 00:36:29,525
The future evolution of our consciousness
is something that can be addressed from
multiple disciplines, multiple perspectives.

358
00:36:30,335 –> 00:36:34,145
And in science fiction is part of
it, but not the totality of it.

359
00:36:34,325 –> 00:36:44,285
And it’s something that we have been trying
to do for thousands of years, maybe not so
successfully, but for thousands of years, we’ve
been trying to make the human heart, the human mind.

360
00:36:45,125 –> 00:36:48,095
The, uh, the human self better than before.

361
00:36:48,305 –> 00:36:53,315
Um, and that’s got to continue and with
all of those areas contributing into it.

362
00:36:53,785 –> 00:36:58,795
So I’ve, I’ve, uh, also read an article that
you’ve written on consciousness in general.

363
00:36:58,855 –> 00:37:02,725
So like talking also about artificial
intelligence and consciousness.

364
00:37:03,385 –> 00:37:05,125
So I would be really interested.

365
00:37:05,185 –> 00:37:07,675
Uh, what is your definition of consciousness?

366
00:37:09,170 –> 00:37:09,590
Yes.

367
00:37:09,890 –> 00:37:18,890
Well, I use the term consciousness as being synonymous,
meaning the same thing as awareness or experience.

368
00:37:19,190 –> 00:37:19,430
Okay.

369
00:37:19,430 –> 00:37:36,740
Just to start with, I use the three terms, synonymously,
and consciousness to define it would be to say that
consciousness is the illumination or revelation.

370
00:37:37,790 –> 00:37:57,830
Of reality consciousness refers to the fact
that not only is there a reality, but that
reality is reveal or manifested and it appears
to me, and this is a point of debate for sure.

371
00:37:58,130 –> 00:38:05,270
It appears to me that this revelation
manifestation occurs relative to.

372
00:38:06,140 –> 00:38:10,520
Conscious mind and individual conscious mind the self.

373
00:38:10,820 –> 00:38:18,260
So I am conscious as you were conscious
of yourself and the reality around you.

374
00:38:18,680 –> 00:38:27,050
So consciousness seems to be connected to, and hear
me to get a little bit what, uh, a deeper, okay.

375
00:38:27,050 –> 00:38:30,080
A more abstract consciousness seems to be connected.

376
00:38:31,280 –> 00:38:47,420
To the fundamental fact that in the universe
that we exist, there is convergence of energy
and information to complex observation points.

377
00:38:47,930 –> 00:38:59,420
So I am a localized, relatively localized consciousness
embedded in an Ambien surround the cosmos I am in it.

378
00:39:00,860 –> 00:39:05,210
In fact, it allows me to be aware of it.

379
00:39:05,300 –> 00:39:15,830
One way that people sometimes will put this point is,
um, conscious minds or individual conscious minds are
the means by which the universe becomes aware of itself.

380
00:39:15,890 –> 00:39:19,130
But perhaps let me go back and just highlight that again.

381
00:39:19,610 –> 00:39:29,270
Consciousness seems to arise localized they’re focalized
in selves and eyes and meats that are embedded in.

382
00:39:30,080 –> 00:39:38,240
And yet are able to grasp and apprehend that
would surrounds them and they’re embedded it.

383
00:39:38,480 –> 00:39:46,070
So I am conscious here, but of all of this around me, I
am aware of this around me and what’s within me as well.

384
00:39:46,310 –> 00:39:58,130
So consciousness could mean to note, to be cognizant, but
there’s levels or depths of consciousness too, because
reality is very complex and indeterminately intricate.

385
00:39:59,705 –> 00:40:11,285
When I say I’m conscious like of a cup, I am
perceptually, but the depth of my consciousness
of the cup can be shallow or extremely intricate.

386
00:40:11,585 –> 00:40:11,945
It.

387
00:40:12,125 –> 00:40:14,425
That is consciousness is something.

388
00:40:15,710 –> 00:40:22,820
Penetrates into this incredibly intricate
reality that actually creates it.

389
00:40:23,510 –> 00:40:30,770
So reality creates consciousness, but then consciousness
is that, which apprehends the reality that is created.

390
00:40:31,220 –> 00:40:33,260
It’s like a mirror, a reflective mirror.

391
00:40:33,440 –> 00:40:34,270
That’s another way to do.

392
00:40:37,405 –> 00:40:40,375
And at your center is the other things also.

393
00:40:40,375 –> 00:40:47,005
So you talk about, and you do research and talk about
science-fiction psychology, mythology philosophy.

394
00:40:47,275 –> 00:40:54,385
What’s the essence of your work over the last couple of
decades as for one thing and another way to look at it.

395
00:40:54,385 –> 00:41:01,465
What do you think are the paradigms that
need to be challenged in our world today in
those various fields that your specialty.

396
00:41:02,210 –> 00:41:13,130
Yeah, well, right now I’m in the middle of writing a
multi-volume history of science fiction and I’ve got
three volumes done, but there’s a few more in these to go.

397
00:41:13,400 –> 00:41:15,170
So that’s a long-term writing project.

398
00:41:15,560 –> 00:41:26,630
I’m also doing an ongoing, uh, webinars series
that you can link to on the website on the history
of science fiction that derives from the books.

399
00:41:27,665 –> 00:41:41,525
I’m also going to be starting a series of short essays
on my newsletter, future constants, his insights on this
issue of the future purposeful evolution of consciousness.

400
00:41:41,525 –> 00:41:42,575
So I’m doing that.

401
00:41:43,145 –> 00:41:51,355
I frequently do zoom or podcasts presently
every month or two, if that more frequent.

402
00:41:52,370 –> 00:42:00,050
This summer, I’m going to the world futures
studies Federation conference in Berlin, and
I’m going to give a couple of talks there.

403
00:42:00,320 –> 00:42:03,470
So I continue to write main issues.

404
00:42:03,680 –> 00:42:06,740
Are the ones main themes are the
ones I brought up at the beginning.

405
00:42:07,040 –> 00:42:08,210
Future consciousness.

406
00:42:08,210 –> 00:42:13,820
That is our consciousness of the future science
fiction, wisdom connections between them.

407
00:42:14,240 –> 00:42:17,840
So write and give presentations and do webinars.

408
00:42:18,590 –> 00:42:29,450
Sometimes do things in person, anybody starting up
this project on why it’s important for us to focus
on evolving our conscious minds in the future.

409
00:42:29,780 –> 00:42:29,900
Yeah.

410
00:42:29,900 –> 00:42:44,690
When you asked the question about what paradigms need
to be challenged, I I’ll throw out some for you and
the things to things that will require a great deal
of discussion to sort of getting a handle on it.

411
00:42:44,690 –> 00:42:47,300
See what they mean, but I’ll just sort of throw them out.

412
00:42:48,140 –> 00:43:04,580
Number one, I think a huge percentage of the
population of the world still believes that there is
something that is absolutely eternal where I think
the entire expansive existence is all evolutionary.

413
00:43:05,240 –> 00:43:07,610
There is nothing absolutely turtle.

414
00:43:07,940 –> 00:43:14,060
I mean, I go back to here with colitis and the statement,
the only thing that stays the same as that, nothing stays.

415
00:43:14,930 –> 00:43:23,870
Well, I would say there is nothing which
is absolutely eternal, even including the
principle of evolution itself, which evolves.

416
00:43:24,635 –> 00:43:34,655
So I think that people still want to hang on to
something that they think is permanent and unchangeable
when reality to its core is dynamic and evolutionary.

417
00:43:34,955 –> 00:43:38,615
And I think that’s an important
thing to, to get a handle on.

418
00:43:39,035 –> 00:43:41,765
I think that people, uh, this is another philosophic.

419
00:43:41,775 –> 00:43:43,565
The first one says scientific too.

420
00:43:43,835 –> 00:43:53,465
The second one that I’ve come across that I think over
the years, I feel like perpetually needs to be challenged
in philosophy and science and spirituality, other areas.

421
00:43:54,230 –> 00:43:57,320
There are people who believe that
everything is physical and material.

422
00:43:57,350 –> 00:44:01,730
The material is there are people who believe
that everything is mental or consciousness.

423
00:44:01,880 –> 00:44:03,080
And I think they’re both wrong.

424
00:44:03,110 –> 00:44:11,300
I think there is both the physical and there
is the dimension of the mind or consciousness.

425
00:44:11,600 –> 00:44:16,910
And I think both of them are equally
real and interconnected with each other.

426
00:44:17,060 –> 00:44:18,530
And you can’t get rid of either one.

427
00:44:19,310 –> 00:44:23,510
You know, because I will hear people say, you
know, everything’s reducible the physical manner.

428
00:44:23,510 –> 00:44:26,360
Everything’s reducible to consciousness and both cases.

429
00:44:26,360 –> 00:44:26,870
I go, no.

430
00:44:27,020 –> 00:44:27,410
Okay.

431
00:44:27,710 –> 00:44:34,640
I think that people who think that there’s a
technological solution to our present day problems.

432
00:44:35,590 –> 00:44:42,440
Or that see life as the good life is facilitated
by more gadgets and more contraptions.

433
00:44:42,440 –> 00:44:43,640
I think that’s a mistake.

434
00:44:43,940 –> 00:44:49,250
I think we got to turn our attention to, and I mentioned
this one already developing our conscious minds.

435
00:44:49,690 –> 00:44:55,120
I think the idea that you could preserve nature
in some kind of static, harmony is ridiculous.

436
00:44:55,270 –> 00:45:01,090
Nature is evolutionary to what we need to do is
we need to learn how to intelligently evolve.

437
00:45:01,955 –> 00:45:04,265
Not preserve it because you can’t preserve it.

438
00:45:04,655 –> 00:45:04,955
Okay.

439
00:45:05,045 –> 00:45:08,405
I think the notion that we’re
absolute individuals is a blender.

440
00:45:08,675 –> 00:45:11,645
We are individuals, but we’re also interconnected together.

441
00:45:12,065 –> 00:45:16,325
And, um, I don’t think that we should see
yourselves as the pinnacle of creation.

442
00:45:16,535 –> 00:45:20,705
I think we’re stepping stones to something else beyond us.

443
00:45:21,365 –> 00:45:26,555
That is an ultimate goal of our
self evolution will be to transcend.

444
00:45:26,675 –> 00:45:26,825
So.

445
00:45:27,665 –> 00:45:30,035
To move to something else beyond ourselves.

446
00:45:30,485 –> 00:45:34,385
And I think the notion of focusing
on the present is infant dial.

447
00:45:35,315 –> 00:45:37,715
That’s what little babies do focus on the present.

448
00:45:37,985 –> 00:45:42,845
And you’ve got to take into the big picture of things,
both our history and the possibilities of the future.

449
00:45:43,295 –> 00:45:45,135
It’s focusing on the present that gets us.

450
00:45:46,385 –> 00:45:47,135
Half of the time.

451
00:45:47,315 –> 00:45:58,385
So those are just some CIOs, some, some paradigms at
some points of view that I find for different reasons,
objectionable, you know, but, and as I mentioned, it
would take a while to go into each and every one of them.

452
00:45:58,945 –> 00:45:59,175
Yes.

453
00:45:59,185 –> 00:46:06,805
Uh, this is, we could now start the conversation
of a few hours, but I stick away for one question.

454
00:46:06,835 –> 00:46:07,765
What do you think?

455
00:46:08,215 –> 00:46:14,605
Is it possible for us as a humanity
to survive without transcendence?

456
00:46:15,575 –> 00:46:18,215
All selves and transcending consciousness.

457
00:46:18,685 –> 00:46:20,095
I don’t think we want to survive.

458
00:46:20,095 –> 00:46:21,325
I think we want to evolve.

459
00:46:22,015 –> 00:46:26,755
I think survival mentality defensive and it’s unrealistic.

460
00:46:27,145 –> 00:46:30,685
So I’m not saying we should transcend our consciousness.

461
00:46:30,925 –> 00:46:33,175
We should transcend ourselves.

462
00:46:33,355 –> 00:46:40,915
That is the kind of consciousness we possess should
be at a more advanced, higher level than today.

463
00:46:41,750 –> 00:46:49,880
And that is going to involve more, mentally healthy,
more ethical and more wise, more expensive and reach.

464
00:46:50,240 –> 00:46:56,120
But after the first point I made,
which was everything is evolutionary.

465
00:46:56,450 –> 00:47:04,100
If everything is evolutionary, then the
realistic position to take on ourselves is
we have to see it through the eyes of others.

466
00:47:04,910 –> 00:47:09,440
So we can keep things the same and they’re either
going to go worse or they’re going to go better.

467
00:47:09,440 –> 00:47:11,810
They’re gonna go someplace, but
they’re not going to stand still.

468
00:47:11,990 –> 00:47:19,130
So what we need to do to focus on is evolving ourselves,
not thinking about survival, but evolving ourselves.

469
00:47:19,430 –> 00:47:25,130
And so if we want to persist, we must grow.

470
00:47:25,460 –> 00:47:28,160
If we do not grow, we’re not going to persist.

471
00:47:28,910 –> 00:47:31,250
We’re, we’re going to CA we’re going to petrify.

472
00:47:31,340 –> 00:47:32,150
You know, it will fall.

473
00:47:32,855 –> 00:47:33,125
Yeah.

474
00:47:33,185 –> 00:47:36,485
Uh, yes, I would say it can’t survive without evolve.

475
00:47:36,665 –> 00:47:41,875
And so we need to evolve for today.

476
00:47:41,935 –> 00:47:47,155
I would like to finish up with how do you
want to be remembered in a hundred years?

477
00:47:47,345 –> 00:47:47,575
No.

478
00:47:47,995 –> 00:47:55,825
To have significantly contributed into where we’re
going to be a hundred years from now that yeah.

479
00:47:56,035 –> 00:47:57,085
That where are you are?

480
00:47:58,280 –> 00:48:06,980
Th th that what I wrote and thought about
in some way or another helped you a hundred
years from now to be at the point you’re at.

481
00:48:07,460 –> 00:48:07,610
Okay.

482
00:48:07,870 –> 00:48:08,140
Yeah.

483
00:48:08,320 –> 00:48:08,680
Great.

484
00:48:08,710 –> 00:48:09,790
Thank you very much.

485
00:48:09,890 –> 00:48:12,010
Thank you for your time and just inspiring.

486
00:48:12,730 –> 00:48:12,940
Yeah.

487
00:48:12,970 –> 00:48:13,570
Thank you, sir.

488
00:48:13,990 –> 00:48:14,860
It’s nice meeting you.

489
00:48:15,040 –> 00:48:15,790
Nice meeting you too.

490
00:48:18,497 –> 00:48:22,697
Thank you for staying tuned for this
edition of challenging paradigm X.

491
00:48:22,817 –> 00:48:27,227
If you liked this episode with Tom Lombardo
for free to share it with your community.

492
00:48:27,587 –> 00:48:29,987
So Tom’s message gets spread even further.

493
00:48:30,797 –> 00:48:33,287
In the show notes, you will find the links to his work.

494
00:48:33,977 –> 00:48:36,077
Please hit subscribe and read my podcast.

495
00:48:36,077 –> 00:48:38,567
If you liked it, I’d be also very glad.

496
00:48:38,567 –> 00:48:49,997
If you write me a review, if you have any questions
or comments, feel free to contact me next week,
we all prefer another edition of challenging
paradigm ex until then I wish you a great week.

497
00:48:50,087 –> 00:48:54,287
Thank you for staying tuned for this
edition of challenging paradigm X.

498
00:48:54,407 –> 00:48:58,817
If you liked this episode with Tom Lombardo
for free to share it with your community.

499
00:48:59,177 –> 00:49:01,577
So Tom’s message gets spread even further.

500
00:49:02,387 –> 00:49:04,877
In the show notes, you will find the links to his work.

501
00:49:05,567 –> 00:49:07,667
Please hit subscribe and read my podcast.

502
00:49:07,667 –> 00:49:10,157
If you liked it, I’d be also very glad.

503
00:49:10,157 –> 00:49:21,587
If you write me a review, if you have any questions
or comments, feel free to contact me next week,
we all prefer another edition of challenging
paradigm ex until then I wish you a great week.

 

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