Too Old For That?

Hi, Xerxes. I'm happy to be with you on this podcast. I'm a Swiss contortionist. I'm probably the oldest contortionist in the world right now. I'm almost 44: in August I'm going to be 44, and I've been doing this crazy contortion thing for about 14 years.

Before that, I was a ballet dancer. I danced all my life, since the age of six, and I traveled the world for all my contracts and my education. I danced everywhere, and I had a pretty moving life all the time. I was always on the move until Corona happened, and then of course we all slowed down a little. But my life is pretty bendy and flexible, you can say that.

Yes. I started ballet dancing when I was six years old. [I saw] a musical show on stage, and I told my mother: I want to do this. I want to be on stage. And she said: if you want to be on stage, you first have to learn something. And we started with ballet. I didn't really know what ballet was at the time. I just knew that I wanted to be on stage. That was always the main thing.

So I started ballet at around seven, and then my first performance was three years later, in the same show [I had seen] at the age of six. And since then, I have this virus inside of me, the dancing and stage virus. Maybe this is a profession, but not only a profession. In German we say Berufung, [a calling]: something you have to do.

And I still love it. I think I have to love it so much to still do this, because it's very demanding for the body, the body work I do every day.

Yes. I just got the Lifetime Achievement Award for my [career], and I thought: oh my God, I'm not that old. But when I think about it, I'm really old in what I do, because contortionists are usually about 30 when they stop. And I started contortion when I was 30. That's a weird thing.

And now I actually have the honor to get that award. But I thought: okay, this is weird. So far I have always seen people that are 78 years old, at the end of their [careers], get this award. But it's kind of special, you know?

I never did a break. I'm always performing, but Corona of course made us stop the stage work a little bit. But contortion is so demanding that you have to do it every day.

For the people that don't know what contortion is: it's actually extreme flexibility done with your body. In Switzerland they call me, translated, something like snake woman. That means I'm a very flexible person. And in order to maintain that flexibility, you have to work out every day. That means home office is not a strange word for me, because I do it every day at home.

In Corona times, of course, we didn't have the chance to perform on stage, but through the internet or other options I could still show my skills a little bit. But it was still a little break from my usual crazy traveling life, which leads me from one show to the next. So Corona made it happen that it slowed down a little, which is also healthy: not only to recover, but also to [get] some ideas. Okay, where am I? Where do I want to go?

Especially at this time, when I got this Lifetime Achievement Award one month ago, I thought: okay, can I get higher? In my career, is it possible to get more? Not really, because I [have lived] all of these things already. But you can change, because you change a little bit as a person, and you possibly have another approach on stage, and other impacts that come into the performance, which is very interesting.

For example, working as a speaker in connection with my skills as an artist, transmitting some ideas: how do you work with your body at that age? That can also be interesting for certain people. You can be a role model, for example, because people always think that when you are as old as I am, you cannot start something new, or you are too old to do that, which is not true. You can always make progress.

So those are the things that came to my mind, only because of this break. It always has pros and cons.

I don't plan it so fast or so far, but I have done it already. And I realize it's always interesting for people. Because when I'm only doing [my act], I'm an artist, I'm a contortionist. When I start to be a speaker, when I speak, I use my voice, and I reach the people on another level.

And when they then know how my career went, which is different from all the normal careers: people normally are 18 when they finish their education as contortionists or as artists, and then they start to be on stage with that art, and maybe 10 or 20 years later they finish. I started contortion only at 30, at an age where nobody believed I could [reach] a good, professional level in contortion. This was my turning point.

And sometimes there is a need in the audience to know that, especially to motivate young people not to give up, and not to think, when they are 18, that they have done it all and cannot reach new goals anymore. Because some people tell me: Nina, I'm 20, now I'm too old. And I say: no. Who says you are too old? You can always go further, and you can always try, because when you at least try, then you know.

At my age and in what I do, you always have to change, because the market is never stable. The market for an artist, for a circus performer, for a dancer, for an actor: we are not like... I'm showing a straight line now, you maybe cannot see it. So you are not nine to five. You don't have five weeks of holidays, and you don't have the chance to recover during this time and be paid.

We always have ups and downs, and we must know what the need of the audience is right now. What do they want? If my show is maybe not successful, why is it not successful? Can I change something? So you have to be very alert, like a snake. You have to know: is what I do good? If it's running well, then maybe I do everything right. Or maybe I can change things. And I have to question this and be open to changes. I cannot be here and say: nope, it's good, and it will always be good. It can be good on stage, yes, but sometimes the market changes, so I have to adapt.

For example, this year we learned that Zoom meetings are very important. If I said: oh no, I [don't have a laptop], I would have to have a computer, I will never do that, then I would still [be standing] and not move anymore. I think you always have to have your eyes and ears open, and your senses, for the people, for the needs and for what's happening in the world, in order to be a good artist and to find your place in the system.

Okay. I always knew I'm flexible, sometimes more flexible than normal dancers. This was my big issue, let's say. It was not always a pro, because at the time when I was a ballet dancer, this kind of flexibility was not even asked for. You had to have a certain flexibility, but technical aspects like turning and jumping were much more important at that time. When I had this flexibility, I was sometimes the only one, and sometimes I could not even use it because the whole group was doing something different. So okay, I knew my skills, but I didn't really train it so much.

But when I was a kid, and this is interesting, the first thing I did, actually, before I started ballet, was cartwheels in the garden, or I did acrobatics for myself, what I saw on television. I just copied that. I played circus, let's say. So I was actually maybe a contortionist already before I even started ballet, but without knowing it consciously.

And then, as a ballet dancer, I sometimes knew: okay, maybe I should be a soloist. Maybe I should do something where I have a solo role, and then I have to sell it. But I knew that with dancing alone, that's really pretty difficult. So the thought of being a contortionist came because I knew I didn't want to go on as a ballet dancer anymore. At the age of 30, I knew: okay, either you stop, or you do something that is really you.

That's why I looked on the internet: what kind of possibilities are there for an education as a contortionist? The name contortionist was not even so much in my mind, not even a picture, but I knew flexibility and acrobatics, something like that, is what I want to do. And then everything went really quick. I found a school in China. I knew I could go there for longer than just two or three weeks in summer. I could study there for one year or two years. So I went there for six months.

It's not that the teacher paid a lot of attention to me, but I watched the kids, I watched what they do, and I learned. And I told myself: I have to learn it. I have to do it now. I cannot disappoint myself and my people, who actually did not believe that I could still do that at the age of 30. So I thought: okay, I want to try. And I gave it a try.

And when I came back, I was pretty much already a contortionist. I trained for six months, eight hours a day, and I transformed my body from a ballet dancer's into a contortionist's. That means I learned handstands, which I never did as a ballet dancer, and I learned these crazy overstretches of the legs and the back, which need to be done every day when you're a contortionist.

And yes, it worked, luckily. Because when you never did it, you cannot know how your body is going to react. Sometimes people find out at [that age], like me: oh no, I always have pain, I cannot do it. But luckily my body reacted very well. So I knew I can do this, and it gave me a lot of strength and force to do it.

And I said: okay, I found my thing, and now I can invent shows, because I don't have to look after the others. I'm [now] a soloist. And of course the beginning was really hard. Nobody wanted to see my show. So I had to really make sure they see me at festivals and so on, to be seen as a new me. Before, I was known as a dancer, but now I had to be known as a circus artist.

Yes. And of course much longer. Six months was just the beginning, but if you saw me after six months, you already saw the contortionist. Of course, when I see videos from that time now, I'm like: oh my God, everything is so slow. I had to concentrate very much to do a handstand and to hold it. Now it's like nothing, like my second [skin], how do you say. I do it every day, it's so natural. It's so much inside of me that I can basically watch television while I train. I don't have to concentrate so much, except if I work on new stuff, of course.

But then it was still a new thing: concentration, a lot of warm-up, a lot of preparation. This was, of course, like every new thing: it first has to become your second nature before you can shine.

How do you say that in English? I was not very self-confident before. As a dancer, I doubted a lot. I was always questioning: is it the right thing? Teachers told me I'm not good enough. Sometimes I didn't get the job. I was used to getting a no. And the problem was not the exterior no. The problem was sometimes my [own] no, because I adopted it and said to myself: maybe I'm not good enough. Maybe I should be better. Maybe I should not be here and do that. There were a lot of doubts, because I somehow felt that I was still not in the right place, physically and inside.

So I knew I first have to get my yes. Inside, the yes saying: I'm good enough. What I do is good. I have to be convinced, to make sure the people [believe] what they see. So I have to be convinced myself about what I'm doing.

And of course, this transformation happened really strongly from the moment I went. There was a big question mark: can I do it? Is it okay? Is it really as bad as everybody says? Because they thought I was stupid to do that, because I was already 30, an old woman doing something crazy. So nobody was helping me, and I had to be very strong. A lot of question marks, but inside of me I kind of knew: okay, this must be the right thing, because I don't want to look for something new. This must be the right thing.

And then, after three months in the process, I felt: okay, it's good. My body reacts well. I know I can shine in this. I worked really hard, and it was really a lot of fun. I had no problem working out eight hours a day. I had so much fun, it didn't feel like work, and maybe this component made it [so] that I'm so happy about what I do.

But when I came back, I was another person: a self-confident person, who is happy, who likes to show what she can do, and who likes to impress the people who didn't believe in her in the first place. This gave me a lot of motivation. It was a big process. The Nina that started in China and the Nina that left China were very different.

Yes. I believed it when I knew, after six, or let's say three or four months, that what I do started to look pretty nice. I can make something with it. I don't have to be the best. I will never reach the level of a nine-year-old Chinese contortionist, but that doesn't matter, because I knew what my show should be. It should be a show with a theme. For example, I have this kind of famous James Bond act, which is still one of my best acts, just because people see me, the Bond girl, and they are happy just with the music and the whole environment that I create.

And I knew after a little time, actually after four months in the process, that this was going to work, even if I didn't have the show in front of my eyes yet. It gives you so much confirmation that you get much stronger, without actually having the people around you saying: yeah, you're strong. Because before, I let myself be led by the voices. A lot of people said to me: oh, it's bad. I believed it. I said: oh shit, I have to work more, I'm not good enough. So you could make me very [small]. You could make me very angry.

And when I knew I had found this art of contortion, I knew I could leave ballet behind. As a training I like it, but ballet on stage [I could leave] behind, and I could start something that is probably now really me.

I think when somebody finds the thing that is their thing, it's going to be easy. It's like in love: when you have a relationship and it is always weird, and somehow you have to fight, you don't believe it's the right partner. It doesn't mean that when you have the right partner you never fight, but it means things come together when you feel it's right. And this feeling I had when I left China and when I started. Even if I didn't have a job yet, I felt confident that I had something to offer which could be interesting for the people to see.

Yes. Because you're in a culture that you don't know, you don't speak the language. Nobody is on your side to say: oh, you're doing well. Everybody watches you strangely, because, you have to imagine, I trained as a 30-year-old with kids from nine to 12 years old, who are much more flexible and already professionals. And you really feel like an old woman, literally, right next to them.

And this is not really helping a lot to make you feel amazing about what you do, because in the beginning you feel where you are, and you are not yet where you should be. If your body does what you ask it to, then it gives you the strength to go through that process and to say to yourself anyway: I know I'm not there yet, but I'm on a good way. I'm on the right road to success.

Actually, it's not really correct. I didn't know ballet yet. I saw a stage performance, and they did ballet as well, but it was kind of a musical performance. So the only thing I really wanted was to be on stage. It was not particularly: I want to be a ballerina. I didn't even know what ballet is. But then I of course started ballet, because as a kid, where should you start? Usually you start with ballet or something basic.

The ballet dream came really strong when I was 14, because I had to decide: okay, do I want to go on with this musical comedy school, or do I have to change? And I had to change school, because I was in a kind of not-good school. Then I knew at the age of 14: yes, I want to be a ballet dancer. But I was technically not so good, because I had missed a lot of technique. The ballet school I was attending was not really good and didn't give this technique to me. So at 14, I realized I have to change schools and learn a lot of things. Only at that age did I become kind of professional in my ballet education, which is a really late age.

I went to the ballet school in Berlin, a professional state ballet school. I'm happy that they took me, because they actually took me at the age of almost 18, which is the age when you usually finish the school. So I had three years to run after my skills and to learn what I didn't learn before. And this was my ballet dream, really. I said to myself: I have to make it, I have to make it. Maybe I should have been more relaxed at that time, but at the same time I couldn't. I absolutely wanted this ballet, and to run after the things I hadn't learned yet. I had to learn so much.

So this was my first big dream, and the second victory was the contortion. Yes, you're right. Or let's say: first the stage, then the ballet, then the contortion.

Exactly. That's the process.

Of course there were doubts. When you send your video out to every director in this world and every [manager], and nothing really comes back except one answer saying: I want to try it with you. This was my first management. Then of course you think: maybe I'm not there yet. But I felt that maybe [I should] change my act, which was pretty long. The video I sent was about 10 minutes, which is way too long.

But it doesn't matter, because you need only one person believing in you when you want to make it. You don't need hundreds that love you. In the beginning, one person is enough. So I had this person, and through her I got a job in a casino in Portugal. They wanted me as a contortionist, but they said: Nina, we love you, but your act is pretty slow. Can you maybe do something that fits a casino more?

And this was the point where I thought: okay, casino. You have three days to make a number out of what you do. At that time, James Bond was very popular. And I said: oh, casino, maybe it should be a Bond girl. The second thought was: which music can I take? So I made a collection of music, from the [classic] James Bond [theme] to Tina Turner's GoldenEye. And then I said: okay, GoldenEye, my costume must be golden. So I invented this act pretty fast.

And it's weird: I think it was the most successful ever. I did this act in this short time, and since then I went to festivals with it. This was the point where it started to be successful, because I had the right act for my skills and for what I could offer at that time. And I think by then I got confidence, because for the first time in my life I was awarded festival prizes and so on, which never happened as a dancer. As a dancer, I was always running after my technique. And it was like: oh my God, maybe I'm not that bad. It could work.

And then one came after the next. So I knew I'm in the right place now. I'm in the right place and in the right métier, as you say in French: contortion is good for me. So this was actually the proof, when it started to work, because I had the right act to offer to the people.

Okay, [to] continue this path [forward]. I think for everybody who wants to make it, you somehow have to analyze very strongly: what do I have to offer, and what do the people want? If this comes together and it fits, then you have success. If you have a great thing to offer and nobody wants it or knows it, you cannot have success. Or if people want something from you that you cannot offer, you will also not have success.

So you really have to analyze it a little bit: okay, I want to do this, I can do this, what is the offer I have? And you make a little package, which you have to sell. Otherwise nobody knows it, and nobody will buy you. And this is actually the business, which is sad. Sometimes people think: oh, I'm such a good contortionist, or I'm such a good whatever, lawyer, but nothing works. Then there is one component in the process that is not yet where it should be.

Or the right act, so that they are happy. Otherwise I would not have had the job, because they said to me: we like you, but we cannot take you with the act you have, with that number. And I said: yeah, of course I have another act, which was not true. I just invented it when they asked me, and then I sent the video two days later, saying: this is my act, I'm a Bond girl. And then they said: oh, this is great, this fits our casino. And then it started to work, actually. Yes, that did the job there, the request.

The big confirmation, and for me an unbelievable thing, happened when I did the casting show on TV. This was two years after the James Bond act, and by then I had quite a lot of experience, because I did that James Bond number a lot. And then came a request from Swiss television: do you want to join Switzerland's Got Talent?

At that time it was a little... not good for us artists to do it. We said amongst each other: all casting shows are not good for us, we should not do it, we are professionals. But I said to myself: a casting show can be a big chance to be seen by a lot of people who never actually touch the circus, who never touch our industry. And I just said: let's see, I'll just do it. I cannot lose anything.

So I signed in and told them: yes, I'm going to come. And then they gave me a day to perform. I was really not well that day. I felt almost sick, because I had another show, and I was like: should I go or not? But luckily I did it, because this was actually my biggest success, I can say. I came second in this whole competition. Second place.

In the end, it doesn't really matter if you win or not, because people have seen you so many times, and either they love you or they don't, but you have a big audience. And I think this was also the first time that my backpack was ready, let's say. I had a lot of skills in my backpack. My will to go out there and show my stuff was ready, and my performance was ready, to make sure I could now do my show professionally around the world.

The reason I say that: the winner of this show was a singer, an opera singer. She was actually a bus driver, singing opera like an angel, really good, but unfortunately she was not ready. She won, and then she was kind of like: ooh. And by the time she woke up from this dream, the demand for her was already over. So when you do this show, you have a chance. And I think this was a turning point, because I used this chance. I went there, I did it, and it was a success. And this was the first time I really had this proof: people like what I do, the normal people like it.

It can give you so much, or not. When I see the winner now, she's still looking for her way to go. She had all the things, actually, she had it all, but she didn't realize what to do with it. Every chance that comes along the way can be a chance to [get] on the train and try fast, but you have to do it.

And this was also a time when people told me: no, you should not do a casting show, maybe it's not good, maybe they [laugh] about you or something. I said: I have to make sure, I have to know. Otherwise I will always ask myself whether it would have been the right thing. And I'm happy I did it, because then I knew it was the right thing for me to do.

And this was the turning point where my art, let's say, which is an art usually known from circus performances, from Chinese performers, which you see only in the circus: I think I helped a little bit in Switzerland to make sure that we as artists are seen as popular entertainment that you can book for galas and events. And it is a good feeling that you can do something for your people. Also, usually singers were winning this show, and I [got that far] as a [circus artist], which is cool.

10 years ago, actually. 10 years ago.

I left China in 2008. Yes, you're right. Three years later.

I knew I could offer something very cool on television, which Switzerland didn't have. And I didn't want to wait for somebody else to do it. So what held me back from doing it? I didn't have a reason. My manager was just very shy. That's why she said: maybe you should wait, maybe you should not do it, maybe it could be a bad experience. Well, if you think like that, you should not even go out on the street, because crossing a street could be a bad experience: maybe a car comes.

So I was convinced. I just felt this inner voice saying to me that I should do it. And since 2008, it had not been bad to listen to it. So I thought: I have to do it, you know?

And the funny thing is, when I came second, a year later, two years later, my manager, who was not my manager anymore, sent all the people she manages to do the show, because she thought: Nina made it, so you guys have to make it too. Which is a little bit ridiculous, because not everyone is the same person. Some people don't want to do this, don't want to have exposure like this in front of a jury that doesn't even know professionally about circus. Of course, you should know for yourself if it's the right thing. I don't recommend it for everyone.

Daring things. Daring to believe in yourself and your skills, and not always listening to everybody else, because sometimes your inner voice is very strong, or also silent, but it's there. People have all the apps on their phones, and the apps tell them what to do every single day. But I believe there is another app, on the other side, which is: go inside of you and listen, what is there? Because there are so many things in this inner voice and this guidance.

We would rather go to the doctor and get pills to recover from something, instead of saying: okay, why did this happen? Questioning things, and not only blindly doing what everybody else says, but also stepping back a little bit and reflecting. And then you usually know the answer. But sometimes you don't try your strength, and [you don't know] that you can do it. So I think, with my experiences, I can teach normal people, or people in normal jobs, to do that a little bit more.

When I start my training now, I'm very much excited, because I had so many things happening in one day. First of all, everything is in my brain. My training takes about three to four hours, which sounds like a lot, but it's very slow training. So it's not like a sprint or something. That means I transfer my thoughts, these big things in my head, a little bit into energy that goes into the body. And then I feel very much connected.

People nowadays sit all day. They go home, and they sit because they eat their dinner. They go in front of the television, they still sit, and they still only nourish their brains. I think we have to learn to go more into our bodies and discover things. Because when I have a lot of thoughts, maybe also negative thoughts, negative or positive, it doesn't matter, and a lot of things like: now you have to do this and that, oh, tomorrow is that day, then suddenly you have to start breathing a little bit and calm down.

And people normally do that with alcohol, or a cigarette, or going out with friends. But this is still an exterior aspect, exterior entertainment, or you do something that is not good for your body. But when you move, when you start learning about your body, let's say yoga, as a good example, I think then you can discover much more of what your body tells you. It sounds a little bit esoteric, but it's really, really true.

I'm not the same person when I start my training as when I end my training. I'm very calm. And sometimes 50% of the things I was busy with in my head at the beginning of my training are not even important anymore, because I know tomorrow is another day, I can do it, it's okay. And I also know, when I did my [training], what my skills are, and this gives me a lot of strength to say: I have my skills. This is okay. It's enough.

Yes. It makes you calmer. That's why I recommend moving: people should dance, they should go jogging in the woods, or whatever things you do for yourself and your body. I think this can help a lot to calm down and to forget. Not to forget the things you're busy with, but to make your energy stop, maybe, because your energy is sometimes very tense in your job, so that you can calm down and be a little bit more relaxed.

Because whatever I do when I'm not relaxed: I cannot bend or fold my body as I do [otherwise]. When I'm very much in tension in the first hour of my training, I'm not the same as in the fourth hour, where the softness goes from the brain into the legs and everywhere. So the process is very important.

It doesn't have to be four hours a day for a normal person, of course. Some people call it meditation: they sit there, go inside themselves and breathe. But I have experienced that a lot of people cannot do that, because they have even more thoughts in their brain when they sit there, and are even more in tension, because they think: I just sit here and do nothing, oh my God. It's very, very difficult to teach somebody who never does anything with their body to go there. Well, I'd just say: try some sports that you like, so that you can see the difference.

Oh my God. I hope that in 13 years I have found something that is, of course, less physical and still makes me very happy. Body work will always be part of my life, that's for sure. I cannot live without moving, but of course not to the extent I'm doing it now, because four hours a day is a full profession, plus performing.

I always plan for two years, two more years. I already lost a lot, one and a half years, with the Corona crisis, the pandemic. So I hope that I can do this until 45, healthy and happily. Then I hope I can still be on stage, but maybe with other aspects, like speeches, as a speaker, as a host. I have an offer for a host job on television in Switzerland, which is very interesting. It's not sure yet, but I'm maybe going to present cultural scenes. That could be a way to go. That is very interesting for me: to bring the art I'm actually living to the people. What happens? What can they see every single day: musicals, theater or something like that.

And in 13 years, I hope I'm still happy with my boyfriend, or my husband, and I'm going to look back and say: [I'm an] established woman in whatever I love to do. Because I think that's the most important thing: to love what you do. It doesn't matter what it is.

I think every change has to start somewhere, but I think we, as a community, as people, every country, should start with the kids. Kids nowadays are not moving anymore, and the problem starts there already. They are not well balanced inside their bodies. They always have too much energy, and they cannot go anywhere with it because they don't move. They have to sit in class all day long learning things. But where is the gymnastics class, [where they can] move?

I think we have to find a way to make the program for these kids so well balanced that, when they are adults, they know about their bodies as much as they know mathematics or languages. I always say: hey, do you know any politician who knows how to do a handstand? And of course people say: no, of course not. Why? Because they should [train] every single day. This is the same skill level that you should have, like with the brain. And I think this could be an aspect we should work on: to educate people in a way that they get back to their bodies at a very early age.

And we could avoid a lot of violence in this world. A lot of people don't know where to go with their energy, don't have a goal in their life. I think when you move your body, you maybe suddenly have a hobby. You maybe suddenly go to football class, or to gymnastics, or to ballet, whatever it is. You have a goal, maybe, and something that guides you.

I see a lot of kids that don't have that anymore, especially through the Corona crisis and the pandemic. They completely lost where they want to go, and this is very dangerous. I think this is more dangerous than having Corona: not knowing what's going on in my life, where do I want to go. That might actually be worse than anything. And we as a population should work very hard on all these questions.

Okay. Maybe: she showed the world that at the age of 90 you can still do the splits, and you can still do a bridge. She showed the world that it's never too late to move your body and to believe in your skills and your dreams.

You too. Bye.