July 29, 2021 xerxes

In this podcast episode Neha Chatwani talks about individual and organizational development, the effects of the pandemic on the psyche, transformation, creativity, career, gratitude, the workplace, society and more.

About

Neha Chatwani, Organisation Psychologist

Following an international career in human resources and organizational develpment, Neha founded the workplace atelier, a creative and innovative space for actionable people-focused change management bricolage, leadership development, transformational team cohesion and organizational agility. Her services are designed to enable collaborative learning to “think, feel, take action to add meaning and value”. Neha is an independent, published academic field-based researcher who teaches and participates in expert dialogue in her field of work.

Links 

Website: https://theworkplaceatelier.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neha-chatwani/

Forbes (2020) : https://www.forbes.at/artikel/the-future-of-work-is-now.html

Global Peter Drucker Forum (2019) https://www.druckerforum.org/blog/a-vision-for-shared-leadership-in-complex-ecosystems-by-neha-chatwani/

Transcript of the Interview

This text has been auto-transcripted. Please excuse mistakes.

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Welcome to challenging paradigm X can we
thrive in the most adverse circumstances?

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What role did creativity play in coping
with the pandemic and what psychological
impact does the current crisis have on us?

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My guest today is Neha Chatwani.

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She’s an organizational psychologist who has worked in
human resources and organizational development in multiple
countries, international organizations and corporations.

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She’s the founder of the play at a year, a creative
and innovative space for actual people, focused change
management, pre collage, focusing on leadership development,
transformational team cohesion, and organizational agility.

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She’s the author of multiple books, academic
papers and articles, including for Forbes
magazine and the Peter Drucker forum.

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Also, she is a field based researcher who teaches
at multiple universities and she regularly
participates in expert in her field of work.

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I know Neha for many years now, and I
always find her perspective inspiring.

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And I’m very happy that you took the
time to join me for this episode.

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So if you’re interested in topics like
transformation and psychology, stay tuned.

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Hi, Nia.

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It’s a pleasure to have you here
and please introduce yourself.

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Who are you and what do you do?

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Thank you so much for having me.

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My name is Neha Chatwani and I am
an organizational psychologist.

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How do you describe or what you do
as an organizational psychologist?

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So I deal with all issues at work,
irrespective of who it is that is working.

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Where it is, is irrespective, whether it is a
single entrepreneur doing social entrepreneurship
or individuals, teams, leaders in larger medium
sized companies working internationally, locally,
remotely, or in a sort of a hybrid setup.

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My main topic is about people at work, how they work.

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And I hope that through the services I offer.

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That together we can enable these individuals
to be as effective as they can be.

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And the term that you use for your work,
it’s a bit different to what I usually know.

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People call themselves culture strainers
called themselves organization developers.

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Do you see a difference?

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Yeah, I like to emphasize the fact that I’m a psychologist.

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I think there are certain
professions that take pride in being.

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Who they are defined as a profession, as old
fashioned, as that may sound, there’s still this
a sense of pride of being a doctor, a lawyer.

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A psychologist or maybe even somebody who is
artisan demands, some kind of cross, right.

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There’s a certain sense of mastery, not to say that
there are not new professions that are developing,
but the depth and the history and the tradition of
psychology is what I like to bring to the table.

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When I describe myself as an organizational cycle.

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And then when I describe how I do things, I
like to use other things kinds of terminologies.

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Like I often talk about the fact that I work in
an arena of change management, quick collage,
which is a little bit unusual because people don’t
necessarily define change management as play collage.

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But I think particularly the pandemic has shown us how much
we do have to leverage this notion of creativity, which.

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Beyond simple agility and beyond
innovation and improvisation.

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So I’m proud of being able to say I’m a
psychologist out of tradition, but I do use a
more cutting edge approach in the way I serve.

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Okay.

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And how can we understand that cutting edge?

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I think what’s important is.

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We as human beings.

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And I liked the idea of being a psychologist
because it puts the human being at the center
of our understanding of who we are in the world.

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And work is an expression of this it’s for
me, just an actionable type of identity.

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And I think as human beings, we are enormously resources.

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To the degree that we’re not even
conscious of how resourceful we really are.

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And a lot of the learning we do is very unconscious.

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So hence my idea or interpretation of play collage
is that we are able to thrive not only survive,
but we are able to thrive in the most adverse
circumstances in the most unusual turn of events, right.

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That we have that ability to.

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Be creative improvise, be focused,
be strategic, learn spontaneously.

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And that is for me, brick collage.

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And that is what I try and leverage in my work.

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So when I say I hope to be able to encourage
and enable people to be the best they can be.

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I mean, that quite purposefully.

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Right.

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And I mean that in that context of the
best they can be, because it’s not.

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The best in terms of gold metal is a plus number ones in
the way we’re taught in a conventional sense at school or in
performance management, but it’s about being effective and
the best and impactful as you can be in your circumstance.

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And this fits into the idea of quick, hello.

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And you talked about creativity.

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How would you define creativity also, maybe in the
context of what we’ve seen over the last a year?

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Yeah, that’s a tricky question.

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I think there’s a lot of research on how to actually
try and define what it actually means to be creative.

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I think that the simplest answer is when you have
managed to achieve what it is, you set out to express.

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Okay.

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It doesn’t have to be a goal that you’re trying to achieve,
but something you’re trying to express or impact in the
most unusual way and transport that information or that
feeling to somebody else and encourage them perhaps
to go on that learning journey with you on that topic.

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That for me is creative.

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And what role do you think that creativity has
played specifically over the last couple of months?

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Independent AMEC?

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Yeah, I think there, you know, there have
been people who I think have discovered
themselves and their own potential to actually.

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Fulfill what it is they set out to need.

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I think everybody was pushed to a certain limit.

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And I think there were a lot of people who of course had
a lot of reactions to what was happening around them.

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And a lot of people, I think also took the
opportunity to think about how they were living
their lives and how they wanted to adjust.

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So I see a lot of people come to me for career design codes.

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Uh, questioning, questioning what they’ve done so far
in their careers, questioning their jobs, wondering
if this is a good time to make a change, which sounds
a bit ironic because these are volatile times and it
might be more natural to kind of hide in your shell.

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If you have one to hide in.

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And yet I’m actually experiencing quite the opposite.

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I’m experiencing a lot of people approaching
me saying, I think that I maybe have not been
as happy or as contented as I’ve pretended to.

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And this is a good time to perhaps explore, right?

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And I think that’s true on an individual level.

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And I think it’s also very true for teams that
are going to likely return to the workplace.

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And I think the, uh, the idea of going back to
what we know is, well, it’s actually ridiculous
because there’s no such thing as going back
in time that just doesn’t exist as a concept.

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So we’re not going back to normal.

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We’re going back.

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What some people are calling a new normal, which okay.

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Is a terminology I can go with I guess.

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But I think we all realize it go, even going back to
work is going to be a different place, a different
attitude, a different leadership will be needed.

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We cannot unlearn what we’ve been through now.

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And these are really exciting times.

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And that respect at the workplace aside from.

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You know, the entire environment, obviously, you
know, pivoting towards, you know, better use of
technology and at the same time, the backlash
of what does this mean in terms of wellbeing?

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Um, yeah, so I think this is a very exciting time to work.

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In the arena of work.

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And so you talked about a lot of
people coming to you now about career.

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Do you have the impression that this crisis
has also triggered kind of people questioning
the purpose they’re working for their meaning,
the meaning of life, things like that?

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Elaborate a bit on that.

94
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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I think.

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You know, it has been a very unusual
setup, I think for most people.

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And it’s not correct to speak of simply working from
home or remote working in the context of the pandemic.

98
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We have to remember that it was more than that because the
entire household was at home, which I think is not always
the case when you do home office once a week, so to speak.

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Right.

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Um, and not only was the entire household at home.

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The entire society was at home, like school was at home.

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Right.

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So it wasn’t working from home.

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It was bringing your office home basically and
bringing in all the other institutions and then
knowing in the lockdown that there was no way out.

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I mean, we all had to kind of stay at home.

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That was no opportunity to go out and meet
people, have a drink or have lunch with somebody.

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So it was a very unusual situation.

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And I don’t think it’s fair to call this a
working from home or remote working or home
office in the conventional sense that we knew it,
it added a whole different pressure dimension.

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And I think for many people in the beginning, it was
actually a very positive experience and maybe it stayed
that way as well, because they finally saw their families.

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They finally had time to do things at home.

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We certainly know there was a lot of renovation going
on and, you know, A lot of companies did very well.

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Of course, providing the products that
were needed, new sofas were being bought.

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Walls were being painted, et cetera.

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People were decorating their homes,
a very introverted kind of activity.

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But this also means of course, that people start
wondering, am I living the life I really want to live?

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Is everything in place where it should be.

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And this is a question of work-life balance.

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And having said that.

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I’ve always found the term very strange because
it implies that work and life are two different
entities that we somehow need to balance.

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And I find that in my conversations, people are beginning
to say, well, you know, shouldn’t, they be linked in
a different way and shouldn’t it be more holistic?

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You use the word purposeful.

122
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Shouldn’t it make more sense?

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Can we not design this in a different.

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And it’s interesting, but this is, you know, for some years,
futurists have been talking about the upcoming gig economy.

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And so it’s kind of interesting.

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People are now beginning to say,
how do I design my own careers?

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How do I design my own jobs so that I can
actually have all of those factors in.

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Where I need them.

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Right.

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So how do I provide for interesting work security
learning time for my kids time for myself, et cetera.

131
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Okay.

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I want what’s what’s the magic answer
for that from your perspective?

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Well, if I had that once I would be writing a best
seller, I think, but I don’t think I have a magic answer.

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I think the answer is different for everybody.

135
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Okay.

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And that’s important.

137
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So I really believe people need to spend some
time just asking themselves those things.

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I think it depends.

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DEMEC has given us an opportunity to do that mainly
because I think we’ve all taken up, you know, the ancient
hubby of going for a walk, people used to do this, right.

140
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They used to go prom.

141
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It OD somewhere, uh, and this was what people did and
they walked and they talked and they philosophized.

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And in the lockdown, this was basically the
only thing you could really do is go for a walk.

143
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And I see the link between, you
know, people going for walks and.

144
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Reflecting with themselves or reflecting with one other
significant person they’re allowed to go walking with.

145
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And this is, I think has what has triggered the revival
and the answers are very individual, but it’s the questions
that are more important, I think, than the answers.

146
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So, which questions did you ask yourself when
you were going for walks during the pandemic?

147
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For me, it was a very interesting experience
too, of course, because I, uh, I’m actually an
introvert in many ways and I really enjoyed the
beginning of the lockdown to be very honest.

148
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So I enjoyed the fact that there were no social obligations
and that I was able to just concentrate on the few
projects I was working on and I had plenty of work.

149
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The weather was fabulous and we were able to get out.

150
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It was March springtime.

151
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So I really enjoyed the walking.

152
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The walking is a large part of my daily routine anyway.

153
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So, um, and we’ve been on a walk together too, I think.

154
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Right.

155
00:13:16,158 –> 00:13:17,418
So, yeah.

156
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So, um, this was important to me, but what was, what was
more the shadow side of the lockdown for me was that I, um,
take care of my father, who is an elderly gentleman at 92.

157
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And, uh, I was kind of confronted with how
do we really see elderly people in society?

158
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And, uh, I struggled enormously with the
recommendation that they should be isolated
because they were a vulnerable group.

159
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And I, um, and I felt this wasn’t the right approach.

160
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I actually felt that they would need more attention,
more human attention, um, and not be isolated.

161
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And so that, that was one of my learning journeys
during this whole pandemic was how do we cater
to the needs of a very specific group in society?

162
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And I was also, um, interested in
understanding how society views them.

163
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Right.

164
00:14:10,433 –> 00:14:20,663
Uh, I think a lot of talk about children in
school, not so much talk about elderly people,
except that they should somehow be isolated,
uh, which I think was detrimental psychological.

165
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So why do you do what you do?

166
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Yeah, that’s a really interesting question.

167
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I think nobody’s ever asked me that before.

168
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Um, I don’t really believe that that we plan to do
what we do necessarily, but I think, and this is true
for me, uh, driven by a certain interest or curiosity.

169
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And I think that I was driven by
the curiosity to understand people.

170
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And appreciate them understand to appreciate
them perhaps is the right sentence, right?

171
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Uh, I’ve always been, I was very shy as a
child, so that made me very much a listener.

172
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And not a speaker, which many people don’t believe.

173
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Many people who know me now don’t quite believe
that, but I actually had to learn to speak publicly.

174
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And as a child, I was a very shy
person and very much a listener.

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And I was very curious about what motivated people
to say and do what they were saying and doing.

176
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Right.

177
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So I think that drove me into psychology.

178
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Um, it was the closest thing I could think of studying.

179
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Perhaps, you know, um, enlighten me on that subject.

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And I think it’s been a learning journey ever since.

181
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And I think that’s why I do what I do.

182
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I, um, actually started my career in clinical
psychology, uh, which was extremely demanding for me.

183
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So I moved into the more, uh, more
conventional area of psychology.

184
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And, um, I’m just fascinated by people’s
motivations, the complexity of their feelings.

185
00:15:52,553 –> 00:15:59,413
The interpretation of their own interpretations of what
is happening around them, uh, and how they react to it.

186
00:15:59,423 –> 00:16:01,433
For me, it’s an endless learning journey.

187
00:16:01,673 –> 00:16:06,833
And even, and every client I work
with, I learn with this client.

188
00:16:06,983 –> 00:16:09,293
It is, um, this is how I see my work.

189
00:16:09,293 –> 00:16:17,053
It’s we’re doing this together and we’re both
of course, in different seats, but I always hope
the client is in the driving seat and I’m just.

190
00:16:18,158 –> 00:16:23,108
Rethink the navigation map and figuring out
how else we can get to where we want to go.

191
00:16:23,768 –> 00:16:27,458
And maybe even asking the question,
is that really where we want to go?

192
00:16:27,578 –> 00:16:35,258
So, um, that’s, that’s the way I see myself very
much in that facilitator navigator curiosity role.

193
00:16:37,358 –> 00:16:39,278
I hope that that’s how I live my life too.

194
00:16:39,338 –> 00:16:45,248
Um, I think it had been my, if I might add, I think
it comes from my biography, so I I’m Indian origin.

195
00:16:45,338 –> 00:16:56,498
Um, but I have grown up in different countries
in the world and I think many people understand
global, a global nomad is somebody who is at least
grown up in their own culture and then moved on.

196
00:16:56,498 –> 00:16:56,678
But yeah.

197
00:16:57,428 –> 00:17:00,218
I don’t really have my own culture in many ways.

198
00:17:00,308 –> 00:17:05,948
Um, it is already a collection of different
things and hence, I find it very interesting.

199
00:17:06,008 –> 00:17:14,948
And I think I also command the ability to
flip, to understand different kinds of people
in different contexts and find it perfectly.

200
00:17:14,948 –> 00:17:15,338
Okay.

201
00:17:15,368 –> 00:17:17,498
Even if it seems very paradoxical.

202
00:17:18,218 –> 00:17:22,298
So I think this, this whole attitude towards
people and that they are allowed to be.

203
00:17:23,063 –> 00:17:33,533
Various things, um, and feel calm, complimentary and
paradoxically about certain situations comes very naturally
to me because it reflects very much my own biography.

204
00:17:34,453 –> 00:17:34,783
Okay.

205
00:17:34,813 –> 00:17:43,303
So would you say that your heritage and
being a world nomad makes you have a
different perception of the world of people?

206
00:17:44,143 –> 00:17:51,033
I think it simply enables me to flip so to
switch sides and see different perspectives more.

207
00:17:51,053 –> 00:17:51,133
Yeah.

208
00:17:52,673 –> 00:17:53,273
That’s all.

209
00:17:53,813 –> 00:18:07,823
I don’t know whether it by default means that I would
have a broader horizon, but I think it’s very difficult
for me to just have one perspective on something
and not appreciate a multiple number of persons.

210
00:18:08,918 –> 00:18:09,848
Having said this.

211
00:18:09,848 –> 00:18:17,138
I also have to say that I am very grounded
in certain principles, which I think
are basically humanitarian principles.

212
00:18:17,738 –> 00:18:26,618
And I was, and I was thinking a couple of months ago
where these would come from and I realized that they
actually come from my mother who attended a Mahatma Gandhi.

213
00:18:27,893 –> 00:18:32,363
In her youth that she belonged to a
freedom generation in India, if you like.

214
00:18:32,363 –> 00:18:38,513
So the generate the first generation after a freedom
or independence was obtained from the British.

215
00:18:38,603 –> 00:18:42,593
And she was a great advocate of Mahatma
Gandhi’s teaching, which is very.

216
00:18:43,793 –> 00:18:44,033
Right.

217
00:18:44,033 –> 00:18:46,253
It’s very humanitarian, but it’s very principled.

218
00:18:46,313 –> 00:18:48,893
And I think that’s important because it gives it a routine.

219
00:18:48,923 –> 00:18:53,543
So it’s not me saying I have this broad horizon
and everything goes, and that’s fair enough.

220
00:18:53,633 –> 00:18:58,733
I understand the various points of view,
but I do have my own compass, so to speak.

221
00:19:01,718 –> 00:19:10,298
So please tell us, uh, you, you said you’ve made
a lot of experiences in different countries, lived
in different countries, so that had a major impact.

222
00:19:10,328 –> 00:19:18,608
What’s the also some turning point or turning points in your
life that you feel had a major impact on what you do today?

223
00:19:19,408 –> 00:19:19,558
Yeah.

224
00:19:19,558 –> 00:19:25,198
I mean, one of the stories I like to tell, and
I think this is where I became socially aware.

225
00:19:25,838 –> 00:19:32,138
If you like, it was, I was in the village of my grandmother
in rural India, maybe about eight or nine years old.

226
00:19:32,948 –> 00:19:37,028
And my mother had sent me off to
the pharmacy to buy her aspirin.

227
00:19:37,808 –> 00:19:44,168
And I remember going into the pharmacy and there was
a gentleman there and he was purchasing one aspirin.

228
00:19:45,098 –> 00:19:46,868
That was like one tablet.

229
00:19:46,898 –> 00:19:48,968
That was basically what he could afford.

230
00:19:49,868 –> 00:19:51,968
You know, and he was putting some coins on the counter.

231
00:19:52,508 –> 00:20:02,258
And I remember, you know, as a kid, as a child
thinking that is so impressive, like on so many
levels, it was the first time that I realized.

232
00:20:02,948 –> 00:20:06,788
You know, people just don’t go to the
pharmacy and buy a box of aspirants, right.

233
00:20:06,818 –> 00:20:09,098
That is just not accessible for everybody.

234
00:20:09,158 –> 00:20:24,428
You know, there, there were a series of different
events and I think particularly rural India, you
know, visiting my grandmother had many triggers and
that at that age, that influenced the way I see the
world and how relative and paradoxical things can be.

235
00:20:24,428 –> 00:20:26,798
So in those days we would have.

236
00:20:27,498 –> 00:20:34,128
Of refugees who would come into her village
because, you know, the whole geography
had been flooded with monsoon rains.

237
00:20:34,668 –> 00:20:41,658
So everybody who was living around that
village would come into the village because
their huts had been swept away by the range.

238
00:20:41,748 –> 00:20:42,198
And.

239
00:20:43,823 –> 00:20:53,573
I always thought it was so paradoxical that we
had so much water everywhere and grandma would
always say to me, you know, go out and give
everybody fresh water to drink such a basic thing.

240
00:20:53,603 –> 00:20:53,813
Right.

241
00:20:53,813 –> 00:20:55,643
A very Samaritan thing to do.

242
00:20:56,183 –> 00:21:07,363
And I always felt that was such a major paradox, but I also
understood how important it is to serve basically to serve
and to understand and appreciate the resources you have.

243
00:21:08,078 –> 00:21:24,218
So, yeah, I guess maybe that was also, you know, the
beginnings of not only humanitarian thinking, but
environmental thinking, social responsibility, all
the things that we talk about now in a very sort of
highfalutin tone, but these are kinds of childhood
experiences that I think were very influential.

244
00:21:24,308 –> 00:21:26,468
And then just sort of fast forwarding here.

245
00:21:26,498 –> 00:21:34,268
I think the death, the sudden death of my
sister who was 41 years old at the time of
her death was a major pivotal event as well.

246
00:21:34,328 –> 00:21:35,948
And encouraged me to do.

247
00:21:36,578 –> 00:21:53,258
What I wanted to do with my life, particularly
professionally, but also is the positive driving force
behind most of my work, where I like to encourage people to
feel that they are doing the best that they can do or having
the best impact that they wish to have in their own lives.

248
00:21:54,998 –> 00:21:56,608
Thank you for being so open.

249
00:21:57,148 –> 00:22:04,738
Um, yeah, my experience with traveling in
some countries that are not industrially at
developers, all country countries in the west.

250
00:22:05,483 –> 00:22:08,813
It was also like while I was traveling just the mere fact.

251
00:22:08,813 –> 00:22:18,233
I mean, you talk about water and medicine, like
aspirin in my, where I felt this type of, we take so
many things as granted was just sitting in the bus.

252
00:22:19,043 –> 00:22:22,163
I mean, where I live and you live it’s for us.

253
00:22:22,163 –> 00:22:27,353
If the bus comes late, five minutes,
people freak out and it’s so sad.

254
00:22:28,213 –> 00:22:39,133
Normal for them that everything has to work
and function, but this is just the reality
of, for a very small minority of the world.

255
00:22:39,523 –> 00:22:46,273
And I always wondered, so I was traveling between
2006 and eight in multiple countries around the world.

256
00:22:46,933 –> 00:22:49,483
And that always thought, then
what happens if there’s a big war?

257
00:22:49,513 –> 00:22:51,223
I mean, how it will be, people will be able to.

258
00:22:52,238 –> 00:22:55,748
And in the west, because they’re not used to crisis.

259
00:22:56,768 –> 00:22:58,298
And now we have a big crisis.

260
00:22:58,328 –> 00:22:58,988
It’s different.

261
00:22:58,988 –> 00:22:59,798
It’s not the war.

262
00:22:59,828 –> 00:23:03,098
And we only had a shortage of toilet paper for some time.

263
00:23:03,128 –> 00:23:11,738
But other than that in the west, at least we didn’t have
shortage of too many other things, at least again, where I
live, maybe I’m doing wrong to people from other countries.

264
00:23:12,458 –> 00:23:14,738
So yeah, I find it very interesting.

265
00:23:15,773 –> 00:23:27,443
On the one hand gratitudes and on the other hand, what, what
we generally take as granted, and it did also have a major
impact on my understanding of the world and of our beings.

266
00:23:28,313 –> 00:23:30,353
So yeah.

267
00:23:30,353 –> 00:23:41,183
What is your impression of the current situation and the
crisis, what it is doing to us and on a psychological level?

268
00:23:42,713 –> 00:23:56,873
I mean, obviously there’s more depression and
stress and fear, but maybe you can give a broader
outlook of your impression when you look from your
experience and maybe also about business and economy
wise, if you want to share something on that.

269
00:23:57,373 –> 00:23:57,763
Yeah.

270
00:23:57,763 –> 00:24:00,703
So thank you for putting the word gratitude out there.

271
00:24:00,733 –> 00:24:03,763
I think that’s a, that’s really a big word and.

272
00:24:05,138 –> 00:24:10,328
It’s true that I, I will never forget how
grateful those people were that I gave water to.

273
00:24:10,388 –> 00:24:16,088
And that, that really remained with me because they,
you know, they would always say, well, thank you child.

274
00:24:16,088 –> 00:24:16,628
Bless you.

275
00:24:16,628 –> 00:24:19,148
And I kept thinking, well, I’m already blessed.

276
00:24:19,278 –> 00:24:22,298
I, you know, I was so overwhelmed by their gratitude.

277
00:24:22,358 –> 00:24:27,518
And I think that, let me answer the
COVID situation using that word.

278
00:24:28,358 –> 00:24:35,978
So I, I think one thing we would probably all
agree on is that the pandemic has actually
showed us where the cracks in society really are.

279
00:24:36,008 –> 00:24:45,068
I think all the social issues that we were well aware
of, including poverty and violence, discrimination,
inequalities have shown up again, right.

280
00:24:45,068 –> 00:24:47,438
They’re pretty marked, very ugly and very.

281
00:24:48,863 –> 00:25:01,733
On the global level, the grab for vaccines in rich
countries and the lack of long-term thinking on
the fact that we need to share them and we need
to find a global approach to a global pandemic.

282
00:25:01,763 –> 00:25:02,483
I think we.

283
00:25:03,263 –> 00:25:06,173
We failed as maybe a simple way of putting it, right?

284
00:25:06,173 –> 00:25:09,653
So we even struggled in the European
union to put our act together.

285
00:25:09,653 –> 00:25:11,933
And that’s only one small part of the world, right?

286
00:25:12,023 –> 00:25:21,893
I think there probably are more positive examples
outside Europe, but on a global level, I think
we can safely say everybody ran for themselves
and, and we found it difficult to collaborate.

287
00:25:21,893 –> 00:25:24,653
That’s very telling, but it’s what we know.

288
00:25:25,073 –> 00:25:30,953
I fascinating about the pandemic for
me is that for the first time, I think.

289
00:25:31,898 –> 00:25:40,868
In a long time in history, the entire world
was captured by a phenomena, which was
obvious and so were rich and poor alike.

290
00:25:41,438 –> 00:25:48,078
And I think that’s why it gained so much
attention because there was no telling
who this virus was going to get to next.

291
00:25:48,128 –> 00:25:54,338
And it could be a prominent person, or it could be somebody
at the end of the supply chain, so to speak, right.

292
00:25:55,208 –> 00:25:59,378
And of course, prominent, rich people
will have access to the best medical care.

293
00:26:00,833 –> 00:26:04,553
But even that wasn’t a guaranteed lifesaver, so to speak.

294
00:26:04,913 –> 00:26:12,923
So I think it was really an enormous magnifying glass
for all of the issues that we know exist in the world.

295
00:26:13,883 –> 00:26:25,133
I would hope that this would be an opportunity to rethink
our socioeconomic systems to distribution of wealth
in particular, and also specifically the way we work.

296
00:26:25,958 –> 00:26:34,538
Because I, I don’t really believe looking
ahead that we will need to do the nine to
five routine that we have been drilled to do.

297
00:26:35,138 –> 00:26:42,968
And if we look further than that, it should
actually be an opportunity to rethink educational
systems, because this is where the foundation is.

298
00:26:43,058 –> 00:26:45,428
So I’m seeing it on several levels here, right?

299
00:26:45,458 –> 00:26:47,438
Political collaboration as well on a global.

300
00:26:48,338 –> 00:26:50,468
Unfortunately, I’m not too optimistic.

301
00:26:50,588 –> 00:27:01,088
I see us kind of rebounding because there is a great
yearning for the normal, the way we knew it, which
personally I don’t think was very normal anymore.

302
00:27:01,148 –> 00:27:11,798
And the 21st century, the grapple to apply old
20th century models in the 21st century, maybe
that’s a normal reaction just to rebound, right?

303
00:27:12,998 –> 00:27:27,098
Further investigate different concepts, which could
help make the world a little bit more egalitarian
and help us tackle major social issues, but also
environmental issues and other discrepancies that we face.

304
00:27:28,688 –> 00:27:30,938
But I’m not sure to be honest with you.

305
00:27:30,938 –> 00:27:37,808
I, I wish I could say to you that I think
it’s going to go in a certain direction,
but I feel that we’re still at a watershed.

306
00:27:39,038 –> 00:27:49,688
And if I look at the 20th century, I think
we can say it may be took the first 50
years to organize the last 50 years, right.

307
00:27:49,718 –> 00:27:51,308
Including two world wars.

308
00:27:52,178 –> 00:27:57,998
Now people like to feel that through
digitalization, we are much faster than we were.

309
00:27:59,168 –> 00:28:01,088
I’m not going to pass judgment on it.

310
00:28:01,508 –> 00:28:03,428
I don’t know whether we are faster.

311
00:28:03,428 –> 00:28:19,198
I think we’re beginning to realize that we may have
left our souls behind somewhere and that people
simply need a certain amount of time to readjust,
but I would expect that we will still be seeing a lot
of turmoil looking ahead, because we’re only 2020.

312
00:28:20,843 –> 00:28:34,433
So if I look at the 20th century, I would say, Ooh,
we may have another 30 years of adjusting or at
least 20 years of adjusting before we come up with a
paradigm for the 21st century where we’re not there.

313
00:28:34,493 –> 00:28:38,453
I mean, there, there are so many
amazing ideas out there for sure.

314
00:28:38,543 –> 00:28:40,493
I mean, in that sense, I’m not pessimistic.

315
00:28:40,493 –> 00:28:48,233
There were a lot, there’s a lot of good
thinking going on and there’s a lot of good
experimenting going on, but it’s not much.

316
00:28:49,448 –> 00:28:49,838
Yet.

317
00:28:49,928 –> 00:28:50,138
Yeah.

318
00:28:50,228 –> 00:28:52,898
We may see the tail of it still do and die.

319
00:28:53,978 –> 00:28:54,308
Yeah.

320
00:28:55,298 –> 00:29:01,018
Hopefully what I find interesting in this
situation is, so let’s put it a different way.

321
00:29:01,378 –> 00:29:11,698
I might have a bit of a optimistic outlook and the
reason why is, so you talked about people want to
go back to the old normal, which is quite natural.

322
00:29:11,698 –> 00:29:12,058
They use.

323
00:29:12,848 –> 00:29:16,418
This is like people have a crisis in a relationship.

324
00:29:16,418 –> 00:29:28,838
For example, although their relationship is toxic,
they’d rather stay in the relationship and solve the
toxic, uh, part of the issues and still stay in the toxic
relationship rather than to break out and do something new.

325
00:29:29,588 –> 00:29:31,688
And so I’ve kind of.

326
00:29:33,028 –> 00:29:37,718
I’m sure people would criticize me if I, I
compare the wealth crisis with a relationship.

327
00:29:37,718 –> 00:29:38,678
So I would put it a different way.

328
00:29:39,248 –> 00:29:44,488
There’s this term of spiritual emergency,
which most people might think when bring it up.

329
00:29:44,488 –> 00:29:51,748
Now this is some new age mumbo-jumbo but actually it is a
diagnosis in DMS four, I think, or three, it was entered.

330
00:29:51,958 –> 00:29:53,558
It was coined by Stanislav Grof.

331
00:29:54,713 –> 00:29:58,043
And it’s about a deep, deep crisis.

332
00:29:58,043 –> 00:30:02,423
People usually have when there is a deep
shock in their life, whatever it is.

333
00:30:02,453 –> 00:30:13,973
So a graph defines I think, 12 or 13 different cases when
this happens so often it’s connected when someone very
close passes away or something similar happens anyways.

334
00:30:13,973 –> 00:30:21,803
So in one of the things in spiritual emergency
is that it is very similar to psychosis.

335
00:30:22,778 –> 00:30:28,088
So it’s really hard to tell the difference
between psychosis and spiritual emergency.

336
00:30:28,118 –> 00:30:36,308
And there is people I’m not sure in more of
a graph actually talked about this, like this
boat service of which is one of my teachers.

337
00:30:36,398 –> 00:30:43,478
Uh, he said actually, sometimes it is also
psychosis, but then it becomes spiritual measures
or something, or at long along the slides.

338
00:30:43,718 –> 00:30:44,858
So I’m telling all of this.

339
00:30:45,908 –> 00:30:59,498
And I really mean it, that we, as a humanity are in this
psychosis with, you talked about that we have in the
21st century a system that was built in the 20th century
or that worked for 20th century, or maybe even earlier.

340
00:30:59,558 –> 00:31:05,558
So, and people are so used to that system,
although it’s obvious that it’s killing.

341
00:31:06,413 –> 00:31:09,173
I mean, we have this climate crisis.

342
00:31:09,203 –> 00:31:13,763
So there’s people saying it’s not manmade, but
still we can see that there is this crisis.

343
00:31:13,973 –> 00:31:17,633
So let’s say even if it wasn’t man-made we
still have this crisis, it’s killing us.

344
00:31:17,693 –> 00:31:19,133
So we need to find a solution.

345
00:31:19,223 –> 00:31:23,363
And it’s very likely that at least
to some extent it is manmade.

346
00:31:24,148 –> 00:31:26,518
And then it goes back to the system that we live in.

347
00:31:27,508 –> 00:31:34,228
And there’s so many other problems with poverty
in society, inequality and so on and so forth.

348
00:31:34,978 –> 00:31:42,508
And most of those problems you can track back to the
system, but still people want to go back to the old normal.

349
00:31:42,568 –> 00:31:47,998
This is for me, at least would be really interesting,
interested to know how you understand the situation.

350
00:31:48,538 –> 00:31:49,288
It is like a cycle.

351
00:31:50,213 –> 00:31:52,853
And why do we want to go back to the situation?

352
00:31:52,853 –> 00:31:58,463
We could actually use this situation
to elevate to something different.

353
00:31:58,523 –> 00:32:04,823
And so to make the long story short, I really
believe that we are in this global psychosis.

354
00:32:05,343 –> 00:32:11,433
For many years now, because we work with a
system that doesn’t serve humanity anymore.

355
00:32:11,613 –> 00:32:13,743
It serves certain people, but not humanity.

356
00:32:14,883 –> 00:32:16,533
And we want to go back to this.

357
00:32:16,533 –> 00:32:30,783
And at the same time, depend DEMEC is like the
spiritual emergency that when you will now go back
to the level of individuals, usually needs people
to elevate to a different level of their existence.

358
00:32:31,928 –> 00:32:36,068
Because they, they often change
what they do in life very deeply.

359
00:32:36,308 –> 00:32:39,758
And I do, although I’m not saying
this will happen for granted.

360
00:32:39,848 –> 00:32:41,558
I believe that there is this opportunity.

361
00:32:41,678 –> 00:32:54,518
So when we look at the whole situation right now,
from this perspective, then it’s just, you’re one
of the global spiritual emergency and to break out
of the psychosis, it needs a little bit more time.

362
00:32:55,568 –> 00:32:57,578
Let’s see what happens in the next 10 years.

363
00:32:57,728 –> 00:32:59,108
So this is how I look at it.

364
00:33:00,298 –> 00:33:00,628
Yeah.

365
00:33:00,658 –> 00:33:02,638
There’s always an opportunity to break out.

366
00:33:02,638 –> 00:33:05,548
I personally think we’re in a permanent state of psychosis.

367
00:33:05,548 –> 00:33:24,868
If you’re like, I mean, there’s always a phase that
we are in, but what I am a little bit critical of
is the idea that the current situation is much worse
than any other situation we, as humanity have faced
before in history, it’s kind of a part of the game
of life cycle that there are always going to be.

368
00:33:25,598 –> 00:33:28,538
Pandemics quote unquote in whichever format.

369
00:33:29,228 –> 00:33:33,758
And it amuses me a little bit
that we feel as the human race.

370
00:33:33,758 –> 00:33:41,018
And I think this is kind of the fundamental point
that we are at the center of the universe and
that, you know, things are either manmade or not.

371
00:33:41,018 –> 00:33:44,828
And depending on the system we choose
that is going to make the difference.

372
00:33:44,828 –> 00:33:56,218
I think at the end of the day, one of the biggest
challenges we face as we tend to think of the good
old times, Whenever they were, because nobody can
actually tell me when the good old times were.

373
00:33:56,218 –> 00:33:59,848
And if we look back into our history,
terrible things have happened.

374
00:33:59,848 –> 00:34:03,178
I mean, actually the 20th century was the age of humanism.

375
00:34:03,208 –> 00:34:05,518
This is when they coined human rights and so on.

376
00:34:05,878 –> 00:34:11,518
And we’re kind of stuck in a rut with that
now, because we’re kind of thinking, is this
still relevant or can we go back to slavery?

377
00:34:11,518 –> 00:34:12,118
I don’t know.

378
00:34:12,508 –> 00:34:17,428
Anyway, but the fact is through these
discussions, we always put humanity at the center.

379
00:34:18,563 –> 00:34:26,063
Of the discourse and it amuses me because I think
humanity is only part of a system that is called nature.

380
00:34:26,843 –> 00:34:29,513
And it’s only a very small part of the system.

381
00:34:29,573 –> 00:34:31,583
And when we look at nature, what do we see?

382
00:34:31,613 –> 00:34:35,903
We see effective use of the resources that are available.

383
00:34:36,833 –> 00:34:41,123
We see the innate focus and purpose to thrive.

384
00:34:41,813 –> 00:34:45,293
Right to grow, to live, to survive.

385
00:34:45,383 –> 00:34:48,173
And we see a constant struggle for equality.

386
00:34:49,463 –> 00:34:50,513
Of balancing, right?

387
00:34:50,543 –> 00:34:51,593
It’s all about balancing.

388
00:34:51,593 –> 00:35:05,033
I mean, watching a tree grow is a perfect example of
that where resources are not available, the leaves
will fall where there’s a rock, the root will grow
around it, some help, but it’s always about the
purpose, the striving to the sky for the sun, right?

389
00:35:05,033 –> 00:35:08,333
And this stays as simple as this metaphor may be.

390
00:35:08,993 –> 00:35:10,973
This is the metaphor of nature, basically.

391
00:35:11,063 –> 00:35:15,443
And we tend to, as the human race,
want to take ourselves out of it.

392
00:35:16,823 –> 00:35:23,603
Paradigm out of that equation and say, no,
but we determined the system, but we don’t
determine the system is my answer to that.

393
00:35:23,603 –> 00:35:35,183
So in a sense, what I would like to see more of
going ahead is the recognition of the fact that it’s
irrelevant, whether we have caused the environmental
change or not, or whether it exists or not.

394
00:35:35,543 –> 00:35:44,363
But what is relevant is how are we going to,
we collaborate as human beings, seeing that
we share this environment as a resource.

395
00:35:45,173 –> 00:35:50,723
How were we going to collaborate in order
for us all to thrive equally as a human race?

396
00:35:50,753 –> 00:35:52,943
I think that is an interesting question.

397
00:35:53,003 –> 00:35:53,333
Right?

398
00:35:53,633 –> 00:36:00,473
And I think in a way that is the question that has always
been asked every time there has been a system change.

399
00:36:02,318 –> 00:36:06,998
I actually believe that the capitalistic system
that we have is, has been built in good faith.

400
00:36:07,028 –> 00:36:10,358
I mean, the idea was that there
would be a wealth distribution.

401
00:36:10,688 –> 00:36:16,538
It didn’t happen because many things were not considered
and human beings are not easily put into an economic model.

402
00:36:16,538 –> 00:36:20,438
This is not the way we take, which is why
I find it interesting as a psychologist.

403
00:36:20,438 –> 00:36:20,708
Right.

404
00:36:21,188 –> 00:36:22,988
Are we naturally so competitive?

405
00:36:22,988 –> 00:36:24,848
Are we naturally so greedy?

406
00:36:26,063 –> 00:36:28,583
Who told us that this is the way we naturally are.

407
00:36:28,763 –> 00:36:30,323
This is what I challenged, right?

408
00:36:30,353 –> 00:36:35,513
Is it not, not a result of socialization
rather than a natural innate behavior?

409
00:36:36,403 –> 00:36:54,803
This is a question that we won’t be able to answer, of
course, but on a very practical level, I agree with you
where we’re at the beginning of, of a change cycle and
other change cycle and the changes innate to who we are as
the human race, in the context of the place we, we live in.

410
00:36:56,593 –> 00:36:59,833
So maybe it’s not a question of
being optimistic or pessimistic.

411
00:36:59,833 –> 00:37:02,953
Maybe those are not the words that
we need to use in our discourse.

412
00:37:02,983 –> 00:37:05,503
Maybe it’s more a question of perspectives.

413
00:37:05,533 –> 00:37:05,803
Right.

414
00:37:05,893 –> 00:37:18,403
And what I think is causing some of the disruption and
this, the pandemic has brought to the forefront is that
we have over the years, told ourselves we can control.

415
00:37:19,798 –> 00:37:20,908
We are in control.

416
00:37:20,938 –> 00:37:27,508
We are in the driving seat as the human race,
and now comes a little virus and tells us no.

417
00:37:28,198 –> 00:37:39,778
And all the science in the world has not really been able
to explain why is it that an 80 year old somewhere can
be infected and either be asymptomatic or simply recover.

418
00:37:40,138 –> 00:37:43,258
And a 25 year old who seemingly healthy contracts.

419
00:37:43,288 –> 00:37:44,818
COVID and passive.

420
00:37:45,718 –> 00:37:50,428
And all the signs of the world has not been able
to explain some of the paradoxes we have seen yet.

421
00:37:50,488 –> 00:37:55,468
Maybe there will be an explanation, but at least to
date, I haven’t read anything that’s convincing, right?

422
00:37:55,498 –> 00:37:57,478
This is an interesting lesson in itself.

423
00:37:57,508 –> 00:38:02,278
Do we need to learn more that we don’t control?

424
00:38:03,268 –> 00:38:13,318
And when you travel through the world, there are peoples,
and there have been peoples in the history of humanity
who have spoken and lived the art of letting them.

425
00:38:15,013 –> 00:38:18,253
Which is something we don’t have any more in our societies.

426
00:38:19,213 –> 00:38:21,163
This, I think is an interesting point.

427
00:38:21,253 –> 00:38:25,213
This Val, you know, we could go into this
whole discussion of burnout, depression.

428
00:38:25,873 –> 00:38:34,303
The pictures were shown as individuals of who we have to be
and how we have to be as linked very much to this, right.

429
00:38:34,363 –> 00:38:35,503
This I think is a central point.

430
00:38:38,638 –> 00:38:47,548
So elaborating on all of what you’ve said now,
what do you think are the paradigms that really
need to be challenged today in your fields?

431
00:38:48,738 –> 00:38:49,008
Yeah.

432
00:38:49,008 –> 00:38:55,278
I tend to be very much focused on the way we work, because
I feel very much that work is an expression of identity.

433
00:38:56,173 –> 00:39:07,483
It’s also not work in the sense of I work to
earn a living, but I work to express myself to
make a contribution to my environment, to, to
leave a legacy, to, to be in a collective, right?

434
00:39:07,483 –> 00:39:14,923
Because often it’s not an individual contribution
that makes a difference, but it’s a collective
contribution whether it’s simultaneous or successive.

435
00:39:14,983 –> 00:39:18,133
And I think we need to look at the central paradigm of work.

436
00:39:18,133 –> 00:39:19,963
And for me, work is also about learning.

437
00:39:20,793 –> 00:39:24,873
And I like to think that life is a learning journey.

438
00:39:25,843 –> 00:39:27,133
That is what life is.

439
00:39:27,133 –> 00:39:34,363
And life is not about accumulating material
wealth, but about learning and accumulating.

440
00:39:35,983 –> 00:39:37,693
Which then you are able to share.

441
00:39:37,723 –> 00:39:41,263
And I find it very encouraging,
especially in my area of work.

442
00:39:41,263 –> 00:39:54,403
That narratives have become a big trend that they’ve
resurfaced, if you like, because narratives and telling
stories have always been basic learning mechanisms
of transporting content and mostly it’s aged white.

443
00:39:54,953 –> 00:39:59,813
People though, I don’t think age and wise
necessarily go together, but they can do so.

444
00:39:59,813 –> 00:40:06,773
I think one of the, one of the biggest
things we need to look at is how we learn
informally, formally how we share what we learn.

445
00:40:06,803 –> 00:40:09,563
This will help us deal with all kinds of disruption.

446
00:40:10,013 –> 00:40:17,003
That’s kind of my agility understanding
anyway, that knowledge and wisdom is at the
central point, but then we actually have it.

447
00:40:17,543 –> 00:40:18,653
And that’s my brick collage.

448
00:40:18,653 –> 00:40:20,543
We actually have it available to us.

449
00:40:20,543 –> 00:40:20,933
We just need.

450
00:40:21,583 –> 00:40:22,333
Leverage it.

451
00:40:22,423 –> 00:40:26,353
And I think that will also impact
the economic social systems, right?

452
00:40:26,383 –> 00:40:27,703
Because it’s about inclusion.

453
00:40:27,703 –> 00:40:33,223
If you really want to build wisdom, you need to include,
if you want to innovate, you need the diversity you need.

454
00:40:33,223 –> 00:40:38,173
So it actually all hangs together with this whole
central idea of how do we learn and how do we share?

455
00:40:39,688 –> 00:40:43,828
I think looking ahead, I would, I’m actually
quite optimistic about it in the sense.

456
00:40:44,858 –> 00:40:46,718
Through the digitalization of learning.

457
00:40:46,718 –> 00:40:55,838
We actually have the ability to go beyond what we were
able to go until now with all the caveats, but I still.

458
00:40:56,963 –> 00:41:09,563
And you maybe also, still remember as a child,
you know, when you asked a question, we couldn’t
Google around or send an email to the professor
or whatever it was, you kind of went to your
grandfather and asked him and he might have a story.

459
00:41:09,573 –> 00:41:17,303
And then you maybe got a dictionary from the library,
or, you know, if you were lucky enough to have
access to all these, the process was very different.

460
00:41:18,323 –> 00:41:19,703
Right from asking questions.

461
00:41:19,703 –> 00:41:26,183
And today, you know, within seconds you can have
a whole array of information, data, opinions.

462
00:41:26,933 –> 00:41:33,743
There are caveats, but I mean, we see a phenomenal,
I see a phenomenal opportunity also in this.

463
00:41:34,483 –> 00:41:49,598
So when you think about from your personal perspective,
Of what we want to learn, having in mind that we
want to tackle the biggest challenges we have as a
humanity ahead of us over the next 20 or 30 years.

464
00:41:49,958 –> 00:41:50,918
What is your answer?

465
00:41:50,918 –> 00:41:52,868
What you really want to learn to be here.

466
00:41:53,858 –> 00:41:54,458
To develop.

467
00:41:54,698 –> 00:42:02,048
So I share, I think I shared the outcome, you know, I sh I
share the outcome of, I think, much research on this topic.

468
00:42:02,048 –> 00:42:04,448
Now, looking ahead, what should education look like?

469
00:42:04,478 –> 00:42:06,308
I mean, where is the focus of world?

470
00:42:06,308 –> 00:42:09,098
Economic forum has a lot of work on skilling and so on.

471
00:42:09,158 –> 00:42:11,588
For me, it’s not about content.

472
00:42:11,618 –> 00:42:14,018
It is going to be about emotional stuff.

473
00:42:15,083 –> 00:42:15,683
In fact.

474
00:42:15,923 –> 00:42:22,583
So I’m taking a U-turn a little bit from what
I said, because I’ve been talking about sharing
content and creating wisdom around that.

475
00:42:22,583 –> 00:42:28,463
But the sharing part of the wisdom is going to be
around what we think is emotional intelligence.

476
00:42:28,463 –> 00:42:32,993
However, we define that and I think
this also links with the pandemic.

477
00:42:32,993 –> 00:42:36,983
So what we also have realized in the pandemic,
we have difficulties being on our own.

478
00:42:38,003 –> 00:42:41,753
We don’t cope well with isolation,
we don’t cope well with change.

479
00:42:41,813 –> 00:42:44,843
However, I think human beings have the ability to do so.

480
00:42:44,873 –> 00:42:48,263
And in fact, I think a certain level of
loneliness is important for reflects.

481
00:42:49,088 –> 00:42:52,298
For wisdom, we have low levels of tolerance.

482
00:42:52,298 –> 00:42:57,788
We tend to use retail therapy, I think to get through
a lot of things, which is why Amazon did so well.

483
00:42:58,328 –> 00:43:01,538
And everybody was dying to go shopping, please urgently.

484
00:43:01,568 –> 00:43:05,258
So either they wanted their entertainment and
go on a cruise or they wanted to go shopping.

485
00:43:05,258 –> 00:43:09,668
It shows a lot about people and
how they cope with situations.

486
00:43:10,388 –> 00:43:12,548
We need to learn to be.

487
00:43:13,778 –> 00:43:18,848
Uh, more self content, more, more gratitude,
more reflection, more appreciation.

488
00:43:18,938 –> 00:43:20,438
And yes, these things can be learned.

489
00:43:21,278 –> 00:43:23,318
They are skills they can be learned.

490
00:43:23,408 –> 00:43:28,718
Uh, people have aptitudes of course, and
personalities that are more inclined.

491
00:43:28,718 –> 00:43:31,598
But at the end of the day, these are socialization skills.

492
00:43:32,378 –> 00:43:37,148
And this is where I think the focus
of learning needs to be in the future.

493
00:43:37,178 –> 00:43:40,718
And the, you know, the whole topic
of wellbeing and organizations stem.

494
00:43:41,993 –> 00:44:04,643
From this, you know, and I have had these personal
experiences in my career where, you know, I have taken
sabbaticals to take care of my terminate terminally ill
mother and have been told, you know, if you take time off
now, this is kind of the end of your corporate career,
which had then also was in many ways, these are the
kinds of things that I think should not be happening.

495
00:44:04,673 –> 00:44:09,533
This is where we need to close that
gap between balancing work and life.

496
00:44:10,358 –> 00:44:15,728
You know, so this is where we need to learn
that the technology is going to keep developing.

497
00:44:15,788 –> 00:44:18,458
I mean, this is clear, the science
is going to keep developing.

498
00:44:18,488 –> 00:44:19,508
We benefit from it.

499
00:44:19,688 –> 00:44:21,068
We have benefit from it.

500
00:44:21,128 –> 00:44:23,408
You know, we’re living longer healthy lives.

501
00:44:23,408 –> 00:44:32,168
It’s amazing actually, but we need to live longer healthy
lives in our spirit and soul as well as in our body.

502
00:44:33,338 –> 00:44:34,448
So this is where the focus is.

503
00:44:37,793 –> 00:44:42,953
So my final question is if you imagine
100 years from now, people looking back.

504
00:44:44,183 –> 00:44:46,283
Your impact, your contribution.

505
00:44:46,343 –> 00:44:51,383
What is it that you want people to say
about you or think of your contract?

506
00:44:51,463 –> 00:44:52,663
Personal contribution.

507
00:44:52,723 –> 00:44:53,203
Okay.

508
00:44:53,233 –> 00:44:54,673
You’re putting me on the spot here.

509
00:44:54,673 –> 00:44:56,773
So yeah, pretty well.

510
00:44:57,343 –> 00:44:59,493
My personal contribution a hundred years from now.

511
00:44:59,988 –> 00:45:08,208
As you know, I write and I have authored a
book and contributed to various sources like,
like Forbes and also to various chapters.

512
00:45:08,628 –> 00:45:13,428
So maybe a hundred years from now that will be
unearthed if they’re still archeology in that sense.

513
00:45:13,428 –> 00:45:16,278
Or maybe it will be found in an
electronic library somewhere.

514
00:45:16,338 –> 00:45:19,108
And I hope that’s a piece of history for somebody to smile.

515
00:45:19,773 –> 00:45:33,273
You know, how naive were they a hundred years ago that
they really believe these things, or they really thought
this thing, or how old fashioned is this model, or
maybe even how inspiring is this model that they had
a hundred years ago and we can still use some of it.

516
00:45:33,633 –> 00:45:44,653
So, yeah, aside from the fact that I hope to
enable individuals that I work with the results
of this written material of my research and of my
thinking, which, which I hope is a bit of a legacy.

517
00:45:45,593 –> 00:45:47,123
Okay, thank you very much.

518
00:45:47,153 –> 00:45:48,533
Thank you for the conversation.

519
00:45:48,533 –> 00:45:54,563
It was a pleasure and maybe another time we’ll
continue this conversation on my podcast.

520
00:45:54,683 –> 00:45:56,093
Camera was entirely mine.

521
00:45:56,543 –> 00:45:56,813
Thank you.

522
00:45:59,795 –> 00:46:09,095
Thank you for staying tuned for this edition of
challenging paradigm ex, if you like this episode of
Neha Chatwani feel free to share it with your community.

523
00:46:09,515 –> 00:46:12,065
So Neha’s message gets spread even further.

524
00:46:12,425 –> 00:46:15,395
In the show notes, you will find the links to our work.

525
00:46:15,815 –> 00:46:20,375
If you have any questions or comments,
feel free to contact me next week.

526
00:46:20,375 –> 00:46:26,075
We’re up with another edition of challenging
paradigm X until then I wish you a great week.

 

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